Dear Paul, and all CU listers,
I really do not want to write this, because I'd rather be abused in an
argument, than be abusive to others. But, Paul, I am going to risk trying
to say something here, without offending you if I possibly can. This is the
kind of thing that I don't think anyone else will tell you.
IMO, it is not the subject that bothers people. The subject of God ordering
the Israelites to harm women or children, as in the OT, would probably get
several people on this list to participate in the discussion, myself
included. People would participate in such a discussion provided it did not
start as an argument. Any comments people made about the subject matter
being unsuitable were made in the context of the argument, which would be
very offensive to anyone in active ministry for the Lord.
Now the hard part. The argument was started by you, Paul.
Buena posted a notice about her Jericho project in Portland and asked our
prayer support. That was not an argument. That was a notice of a project
and a request for prayer support.
Here is one example of what you could have said to engender a discussion of
God-ordered harm to women and children in the OT:
Example: Buena, I appreciate your effort in your Jericho project, and it
is not my intention to offend a Christian so diligently working for the
Lord, but I have some reservations I would like to discuss with you and with
others on this list regarding God-ordered harm to women and children in the
OT.
Here are some of the things that are true, that you did not say:
The story of Jericho does show God working his miraculous power through the
obedience of His chosen people, against their enemies. And it is very much
related to the subject of Christian unity, in many ways.
The effort to unite Christians in Portland to take back from the devil, the
portions of the city that seem to now be overrun by evil, is very admirable,
and deserving of the thanks of the whole body of Christ. We thank you for
it, and appreciate ministries such as yours who are trying to make a
difference in the world. And it is very much related to the subject of
Christian unity, in many ways.
Here is what you actually said:
"Maybe you have forgotten about the events regarding Jericho. Take a look
at
the Bible:"
My Comment: Paul, this sounds like you think that a Christian lady working
for Jesus in a special project related to Jericho, would forget to read the
Bible about it. This is not a reasonable assumption, and sounds like an
intentional insult.
You also said this:
Are you sure you want to duplicate this terrible, murderous, raping portion
of the Bible.
My Comment: Paul, this sounds like you think that a Christian lady working
for Jesus in a special project related to Jericho, would go to all that
trouble to promote terrible, murderous, and raping activities. Again, this
is not a reasonable assumption, and sounds like an intentional insult.
My comments in summary:
Paul, you started an argument. You did not do like the people in the news
release. You did not celebrate a pattern of convergence and cooperation
between Christians in Christian faith, common cultural and social tasks, and
evangelisitic commitment. You did not warmly commend and encourage the
formal theological dialogues of recent years. What you did do, is start an
argument with a very poor choice of words.
I know it was pointed out to you that you used the wrong scripture, and
rightly so. But in my opinion the kind of scripture you really forgot about
was one like these:
Ephesians 4:2 (KJV)
2With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another
in love;
Ephesians 4:3 (KJV)
3Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
1 Corinthians 13:1 (KJV)
1Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity,
I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.
Paul, you also repeated a bunch of quotes from that excerpted press release.
The one you may want to reconsider most, and the one which bears most
importantly for all of us in the body of Christ, is this one:
"We together, evangelicals and Catholics, confess our sins against the unity
that Chirst intends for all his disciples."
Lastly, Paul, I don't pretend to know just exactly and fully what Christian
unity is, at least not in all it's details...
1 John 3:2 (KJV)
2Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we
shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for
we shall see him as he is.
...and I hope you can take this, Paul, with a grain of salt...
Mark 9:50 (KJV)
50Salt is good: but if the salt have lost his saltness, wherewith will ye
season it? Have salt in yourselves, and have peace one with another.
....but I know what Christian unity ain't. It ain't a debate where the
losers get insulted by their brother and the debate winners get a gold star
and sit up front next to Jesus.
Mark 10:40 (KJV)
40But to sit on my right hand and on my left hand is not mine to give; but
it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared.
Mark 10:41 (KJV)
41And when the ten heard it, they began to be much displeased with James and
John.
Mark 10:42 (KJV)
42But Jesus called them to him, and saith unto them, Ye know that they which
are accounted to rule over the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and
their great ones exercise authority upon them.
Mark 10:43 (KJV)
43But so shall it not be among you: but whosoever will be great among you,
shall be your minister:
Mark 10:44 (KJV)
44And whosoever of you will be the chiefest, shall be servant of all.
Mark 10:45 (KJV)
45For even the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister,
and to give his life a ransom for many.
Btw, much of the discussion about Jericho, some by you, Paul, and especially
by Buena, Thomas, and Klaus, was very informative to me, as was the
excerpted Christian unity news release. And all could be very pertinent to
Christian unity in the right context. I just wish I didn't have to sift
through an argument to find it.
Love in Jesus to all,
Tim
----- Original Message -----
From: <SCREENJASS@...>
To: <christianunity@...>
Sent: Tuesday, September 28, 1999 11:03 AM
Subject: [CU] CU: PRESS RELEASE
> .Please see following press release for information on UNITY;
>
> PRESS RELEASE
> COLSON KEY PARTICIPANT IN STATEMENT OF EVANGELICAL, CATHOLIC COOPERATION
IN
> UNITY
> New York, March 29, 1994--Charles Colson joined a group of Christian
leaders
> in releasing here today a declaration that explains and celebrates "a
pattern
> of convergence and cooperation" between evangelicals and Catholics in
> Christian faith, common cultural and social tasks, and evangelisitic
> commitment.
> The declaration, initiated by Colson, chairman of Prison Fellowship
> Ministries, and Father Richard John Neuhaus of the Institute on Religion
and
> Public Life, declares: "We together, evangelicals and Catholics, confess
our
> sins against the unity that Chirst intends for all his disciples."
>
> The statemnet contains a joint affirmation that "Christians are to teach
and
> live in obedience to the divinely inspired Scriptures, which are the
> infallible word of God," while rejecting "any appearance of harmony that
is
> purchased at the price of truth." The statement lists areas where
Catholics
> and evangelicals still hold different understandings of the church,
> sacraments, ministry, saints and the role of the Bible.
>
> "We have differences," Colson said, "but on the ancient creeds and the
core
> beliefs of Christianity we stand together. Christianity is besieged on all
> sides--by a militant nation of Islam, by pantheists who have invaded many
> areas of life through the New Age Movement, and by the aggressive
secularism
> of Western life."
>
> Thirty-nine scholars and Christan leaders endorsed the 25-page statement.
In
> addition to Colson and Neuhaus, they include: Rev. Pat Robertson,
Professor
> J.I. Packer, Dr. Os Guinness, Dr. Kent Hill, Dr. Richard Land, Dr. John
> White, Dr. Bill Bright, Rev. Avery Dulles, John Cardinal O'Connor,
Archbishop
> Francis Stafford, Bishop Carlos Sevilla, George Weigel and Michael Novak.
# #
> #
>
> Excerpt from the 25-page statement:
>
> Indeed these differences may never be resolved short of the Kingdom Come.
> Nonetheless, we are not permitted simply to resign ourselves to
differences
> that divide us from one another. Not all differences are authentic
> disagreements, nor need all disagreements divide. Differences and
> disagreements must be tested in sustained conversation. In this
connection
> we warmly commend and encourage the formal theological dialogues of recent
> years
>
> Paul here....
> Please note the comment regarding: "Differences and disagreements must be
> tested in sustained conversation. In this connection we warmly commend
and
> encourage the formal theological dialogues of recent years". These are
> religious leaders attempting to unify Christianity. These leaders do not
> encourage the "head in the sand approach". As designated in their press
> release: " while rejecting "any appearance of harmony that is purchased at
> the price of truth." The Bible, especailly the OT is difficult to
> understand, and if we are to be unified, we must have sustained
conversation
> and theological dialogues so we may understand our differences, draw them
> closer, and unify ourselves. If we are to be in one voice, we must be in
one
> understanding. If we do not understand, or believe we understand
differntly,
> we cannot be unified. We must declaire the scriptures as we understand
them,
> listen to others as they understand the scriptures, and come to a common
> understanding, or be unified. This is the Unity list, is it not?
>
> Bless
> Paul Jass
>
> --
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>