Dear Barry and other Cu listers, It's great to hear some discussion from brethren in Christ on this Christian unity (Cu) list again! It's been quiet here for a long time! As for myself, I've been lately involved in discussions on another mailing list related to Cu, and although I'm about to wrap that effort up, I'm still working on a kind of summary statement of what I learned from those many discussions. So for me personally, it may be a little time yet before I can properly hold up my end of a conversation here on this Cu list, and in the meantime I hope you will bear with me for a time while I work mostly on that summary, which I plan to post here as soon as I finish it. But your comments here, Barry, are along similar lines of thought as I am currently working on, so it helps me tremendously to hear on these matters from other brethren in Christ, such as yourself and Larry. I've done a lot of writing over the years about the subject of Cu, and the vast majority of it has consisted of just stating what I think the Bible says, with quoted Bible references, and many times, simply stating what has been explained to me about what the Bible says, specifically by other Christians on this Cu list. I have often heard it said that you don't know what you really think until you put it in writing, and I would add that you often don't know what to write till you either hear it from some other Christian, or till you try it out on some other Christian.and I believe there is scripture that generally bears this out, expressed as the need to be led by the Holy Spirit in one another. 1 Corinthians 12:21 And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you. Ephesians 4:7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ. Ephesians 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: 13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: 1 Peter 4:11 If any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God; if any man minister, let him do it as of the ability which God giveth: that God in all things may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom be praise and dominion for ever and ever. Amen. I just hope every Christian on this list feels welcome to comment, no matter what they have to say. Sometimes it's hard to sustain conversations on this list, which I think is primarily because we just don't often get riled here, by reason of our deep interest in seeking Christian unity together, and because we discuss it in ways intended to allow the Holy Spirit to work through us in His word. This Cu list has been that way for a long time now. James 3:17 But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy. Unfortunately, we Christians generally seem to work much harder venting our anger (as in arguments on other lists) than we work together in peaceable, Godly conversation to build up the body of Christ, endeavoring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace, and our efforts at peace in the body of Christ ought not to be so relatively meager. In any event, I'm glad to hear some good discussion here, Barry, and I hope all on the list will find a way to contribute their comments, so we can hear from everyone on the list and keep all good conversations going. Philippians 4:8 Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things. I happen to agree, Barry, with most all of what you say here, though I may differ in some details. Still, even in the points I may disagree in, I am very, very glad you brought these issues up, and I think this area of discussion is *vitally* important to the purpose of furthering unity in the body of Christ. I believe this stuff is very important, so I am herewith commenting on it at length, and I hope every Christian on this list will comment as well. This, imo, simply means *life* to the body of Christ. If I had to summarize what I believe the most important basis of Christian unity is, it would be this: unity of love between all who believe in Jesus to repentance. Or in other words, God is telling us all to just quit sinning, and serve Jesus; or to quit serving our own flesh, and serve the body of Christ instead; to quit serving the flesh of our own bodies, which is the flesh that turns to dust, and serve instead the eternal flesh of the body of Christ, which, united together in Jesus, in the body of Christ, is the eternal home of God living within us believers all, and walking among us. Hebrews 8:1 Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens; 2 A minister of THE SANCTUARY, AND OF THE TRUE TABERNACLE, which the Lord pitched, and not man. Hebrews 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will PUT MY LAWS INTO THEIR MIND, AND WRITE THEM IN THEIR HEARTS: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: 11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. 12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more. 13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away. Hebrews 9:1 Then verily the FIRST COVENANT had also ordinances of divine service, and a WORLDY SANCTUARY. Hebrews 9:11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and MORE PERFECT TABERNACLE, NOT MADE WITH HANDS, that is to say, not of this building; John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and WE WILL COME UNTO HIM, AND MAKE OUR ABODE WITH HIM. Luke 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, THE KINGDOM OF GOD IS WITHIN YOU. 1 Corinthians 3:16 Know ye not that YE ARE THE TEMPLE OF GOD, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? 1 Peter 2:5 Ye also, AS LIVELY STONES, ARE BUILT UP A SPIRITUAL HOUSE, an holy priesthood, to OFFER UP SPIRITUAL SACRIFICES, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ. John 15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, AS I HAVE LOVED YOU. 13 Greater love hath no man than this, THAT A MAN LAY DOWN HIS LIFE for his friends. 1 John 3:16 Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and WE OUGHT TO LAY DOWN OUR LIVES FOR THE BRETHREN. (Pls. Note, CAPITALIZATION EMPHASIS MINE; capitalization is the form of emphasis I use because it survives "text only" type emails.) In this sense, the call to Christian unity is the culmination of the strongly, Biblically worded dichotomy between the carnal and the spiritual, the mortal vs. the eternal, which is clearly referred to over and over again in the Bible, and to which, I think, you, Barry, well refer in your comments: > There are many scriptures saying we should not have anything to do with the > world for if we do so we will come away tainted by the association. God is > calling even now, speaking of Babylon, "come out of her my people", and > those who have heeded this call are already saved. Romans 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. And I agree with you, Barry, that the man in that referenced article from "Faith Today" did somewhat misuse that particular Bible quote when he said, "all of us ARE sinners and fall short of the glory of God". What the Bible says is that we all HAVE sinned, and the tense is important: Romans 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. 21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: 23 For all HAVE sinned, and come short of the glory of God; 24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; 26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. On the other hand, Jesus tells us to expect to forgive many times in a day, if necessary. So it appears that although we have sinned in the past, and that our sins are far behind us and forgotten by God, so that we can walk victorious lives in Christ, nevertheless we may well be expected to sin in the future and need to forgive one another, and to be forgiven ourselve, on a continual basis. I think that's a good definition of living the life of faith in Jesus. We' re perfect now because we're forgiven in Him, and as soon as we learn of any other sin, we repent of that, too, and continue in our walk with the Lord, who continually, lovingly corrects His children, as we continually, lovingly forgive each other, rebuking only as necesary out of love. Romans 8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth. 34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. 35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? 36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. 37 Nay, in all these things WE ARE MORE THAN CONQUERORS THROUGH HIM that loved us. Hebrews 12:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. 7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not? 8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons. 9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live? Luke 17:3 Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, REBUKE HIM; and if he repent, forgive him. 4 And if he trespass against thee seven times in a day, and SEVEN TIMES IN A DAY turn again to thee, saying, I REPENT, THOU SHALT FORGIVE HIM. Ephesians 4:29 Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but THAT WHICH IS GOOD TO THE USE OF EDIFYING, that it may minister grace unto the hearers. 1 Corinthians 13:1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not CHARITY, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal. Ephesians 4:32 And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, FORGIVING one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you. Colossians 3:13 Forbearing one another, and FORGIVING one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye. Finally, Barry, I have one more comment about the "glory of God", which I think has very, very special significance for those of us who truly seek Christian unity, as I believe you and I do, and, I think most of the people on this list. Jesus said that He's already given us Christians, being in this world though not of it, the "glory of God", for the purpose of Christian unity. John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but THESE ARE IN THE WORLD, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are. John 17:22 And the GLORY WHICH THOU GAVEST ME I HAVE GIVEN THEM; that they may be one, even as we are one: This is the exact same word, "glory", which Jesus spoke of regarding miracles worked on this earth, when he raised Lazarus from the dead. John 11:4 When Jesus heard that, he said, This sickness is not unto death, but for the GLORY OF GOD, that the Son of God might be glorified thereby. John 11:40 Jesus saith unto her, Said I not unto thee, that, if thou wouldest believe, thou shouldest see the GLORY OF GOD? So, it is my strong belief, that in this sense, we members of the body of Christ, Christians all, not only HAVE sinned, but in large part, CONTINUE NOW IN SIN, to whatever extent each of us NOW fails to lay down our lives for each other in the body of Christ, having failed to as yet fulfill the new commandment of Jesus to unite in love together in Him, and failing to show to the world that love for all God's children who believe in Jesus to repentance, regardless of Christian group or denomination. Imo, only if we've done all Jesus has commanded, then only do we serve Him fully, at least promoting ourselves to the position of unprofitable servants, by finally serving the whole body of Christ in love and forgiveness of one another, all who repent and claim the blood of Jesus. And imo, the day certainly soon comes when we shall, united together in Him, work miracles in His name, which the world cannot fail to see as being worked by the disciples of Him who was sent by God. John 13:35 By this SHALL ALL MEN KNOW that ye are MY DISCIPLES, IF ye have love one to another. John 17:23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and THAT THE WORLD MAY KNOW THAT THOU HAST SENT ME, and HAST LOVED THEM, AS THOU HAST LOVED ME. John 17:24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; THAT THEY MAY BEHOLD MY GLORY, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world. God loved all His children before the foundation of the world. And Jesus has always been there, abiding in God's love for all His children, regardless of Christian denomination or group, waiting for the fullness of times, for us to finally come along and obey Him in the new commandment of Jesus. Luke 17:3 Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; AND IF HE REPENT, FORGIVE HIM. 4 And if he trespass against thee seven times in a day, and seven times in a day turn again to thee, saying, I repent; thou shalt forgive him. 5 And the apostles said unto the Lord, INCREASE OUR FAITH. 6 And the Lord said, If ye had faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye might say unto this sycamine tree, Be thou plucked up by the root, and be thou planted in the sea; and it should obey you. 7 But which of you, having a servant plowing or feeding cattle, will say unto him by and by, when he is come from the field, Go and sit down to meat? 8 And will not rather say unto him, Make ready wherewith I may sup, and gird thyself, and SERVE ME, TILL I HAVE EATEN AND DRUNKEN, AND AFTERWARD THOU SHALT EAT AND DRINK? 9 Doth he thank that servant because he did the things that were commanded him? I trow not. 10 So likewise ye, WHEN YE SHALL HAVE DONE ALL THOSE THINGS COMMANDED YOU, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do. John 15:12 THIS IS MY COMMANDMENT, That ye love one another, as I have loved you. Ephesians 1:9 Having MADE KNOWN TO US THE MYSTERY OF HIS WILL, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: 10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might GATHER TOGETHER IN ONE ALL THINGS IN CHRIST, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: 1 John 5:14 And THIS IS THE CONFIDENCE THAT WE HAVE IN HIM, that, if we ask any thing ACCORDING TO HIS WILL , he heareth us: 15 And if we know that he hear us, whatsoever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we desired of him. 16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it. 17 All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death. Hebrews 3:6 But Christ as a son over his own house; WHOSE HOUSE ARE WE, IF WE HOLD FAST THE CONFIDENCE and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end. 1 John 3:21 Beloved, IF OUR HEART CONDEMN US NOT, THEN HAVE WE CONFIDENCE TOWARD. 22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, BECAUSE WE KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight. 23 And THIS IS HIS COMMANDMENT, That we should BELIEVE on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, AND LOVE ONE ANOTHER, as he gave us commandment. 24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us. That Spirit, is the Spirit of love for all Christians, of all Christian denominations and groups, which Spirit within each of us Christians is the Spirit of Christ, Himself, who is Himself, and always has been, the love of God the Father, for all God's children, whosoever believeth in Jesus to repentance. Love in Jesus, Tim ----- Original Message ----- From: "Barry" <btayl@...> To: <christianunity@...> Sent: Saturday, April 07, 2001 11:32 PM Subject: Re: [CU] Article: about marriage, sexuality and spirituality > Dear Tim, > I do not believe that those who are saved are still sinners and fall short > of the glory of God. Before we were saved we were sinners and fell short of > God's glory. The reason why we must not judge the people in the world is for > that exact reason, that we were sinners, who God decided to save. Our > salvation was not for anything we had done, it was simply by God's grace, > through our belief that God can save me. Our judgement of others in the > world is self righteousness, believing we through some form of our own works > are saved. If we judge others in the world we are judging ourselves because > we also belonged to the world before we were saved, but God judged us > righteous through Christ's righteousness, and this imputation through the > working of the Holy Spirit in ones life, brings mercy and love, not > judgement and hate. > > There are many scriptures saying we should not have anything to do with the > world for if we do so we will come away tainted by the association. God is > calling even now, speaking of Babylon, "come out of her my people", and > those who have heeded this call are already saved. To say that I am a sinner > who is saved argues against the many many good people in the world whose > deeds speak volumes, but their allegiance speaks idols. How can those, who > say I am a sinner who is saved, be any different from the rest of the world > who are sinners unsaved. Jesus came to save me from my sin, (Mat. 1:21) and > not save me still in my sin. > > To argue that a homosexual is welcome as a child of God, goes against too > many scriptures, both old and new testament, to hold any water. A homosexual > who changes his spots is certainly welcome into God's Kingdom. The criteria > for entering the Kingdom of God IS, "You must be born anew." (John 3:3) A > person who is born again through the Spirit of God shakes off these old evil > habits of the world, and starts to take on righteous habits as the Spirit > leads. A murderer cannot enter the Kingdom, neither a thief or a person who > bears false witness, or one who covets, so why would a homosexual have > special treatment? When one is born again one takes on the culture that is > exclusively God's so that the old man of sin does not rule ones life > anymore. > > Barry > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Tim Warlick <cuprayer@...> > To: <christianunity@...> > Sent: Thursday, March 22, 2001 4:56 AM > Subject: [CU] Article: about marriage, sexuality and spirituality > > > > Dear Brothers and Sisters in Christ, > > > > Some of this article deals with some of the same subjects of recent posts > on > > this list. > > > > Indeed, conservative Christians, who articulate their belief that God > calls > > Christians to love everyone but not actions that scripture calls sinful, > > complain that they are accused of bigotry and inciting hate crimes. "We > are > > to love people who are sinners -- all of us are sinners and fall short of > > the glory of God -- but you are to be discriminating about what behavior > you > > accept," says Bill Merrell, vice president for convention relations of the > > Executive Committee of the Southern Baptist Convention. "To claim that > leads > > to hatred is a form of hate speech itself." > > Gays and lesbians, on the other hand, argue that too often conservative > > Christians use the pulpit to paint homosexuals as perverted and beyond the > > reach of God's love, language they say provides justification to harm > them. > > > > http://www.faithtoday.com/livinggaydebate0600.htm > > > > Interesting article recognizes the importance of the issue. > > > > Love in Jesus, > > Tim > > > > > > -- > > To unsubscribe, send ANY message to > <christianunity-unsubscribe@...> > > > > > > > -- > To unsubscribe, send ANY message to <christianunity-unsubscribe@...> >