Dear Larry, and all Cu List Brothers and Sisters in Christ,

First, I'd like to make the overall observation, not directed at all toward
you in particular, Larry, but only as a general preface to all remarks on
this Cu list regarding the subjects such as we are now discussing together
here.  I just want to say this here because we are discussing so many
scriptures for which the meaning is subject to variable interpretation.

I'd like to point out here firstly, that there are many scriptures that are
very clear in meaning, or can be made clear by their context, and as used in
comparison with related scriptures, also taken in their own context.  And of
course, these clearly definable scriptures are, and rightly ought to be, the
scriptures we Christians generally seek first in which to find agreement
with our brethren in Christ, for the purpose of seeking unity of the faith.

On the other hand, there are many, many scriptures that are subject to
varying interpretation, such as some of the parables of Jesus, and for which
it is largely impossible to prove, conclusively, even using other associated
scripture, a single, all-encompassing meaning or interpretation, to the
absolute, unarguable exclusion of all others.  And, in addition, there are
many scriptures that are widely recognized by Christians to have more than
one meaning, some of which have been fulfilled several times in the history
of man's relationship to God.

Of such scriptures that are inconclusively proveable for only one meaning, I
think we owe it to each other to allow as much lattitude as reasonable in
interpretation, as long as it doesn't violate any issue that is key to
salvation.  I, for one, do occasionally venture to offer an interpretation
of such scriptures, but only if I feel it potentially contributes to the
purpose of Christian unity, and I am happy to elaborate on such
interpretations, given the chance.  But I hope that all here realize that a
lot of such comments by me are just matters of my own opinion, not intended
to offend anyone, and points about which I simply refuse to argue.

I've found over the years that if the Holy Spirit doesn't speak in the heart
of another Christian, to lead him or her to the same conclusions, especially
regarding Cu, that I make when I read the same scripture, then arguing about
it is generally pointless.

I think that is at least part of what Jesus meant when He said,
Matthew 7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of
thorns, or figs of thistles?

And I think that's why the apostle further clarified that the fruits of
God's Spirit in each of us, are fruits that all draw us in together to Him
who is the vine, in whom we remain to bear fruit; the sweet, desireable
fruit men want to gather to themselves, which is never obstructed by thorns,
and that all lead to unity in Christ:
Galatians 5:22  But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace,
longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23  Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

I think that's what He meant in those scriptures, but if the Holy Spirit
doesn't confirm that meaning to you in your heart when you read it, don't
believe it.

For instance, I like to always point out that I don't pretend to be able to
conclusively prove that Christian unity applies to more than one
denomination.  The word denomination isn't in the Bible.  If others *want*
to believe that theirs is the only Christian group acceptable to God, or the
best Christian denomination, or the one Christian group or denomination that
is complete without all the others, then there is no scriptural proof I can
offer that will prove to them otherwise.

I do, however, vigorously contend that, if you assume that Christian unity
*does* apply to more than one Christian denomination or group, then many,
many of those scriptures which might otherwise be taken to be of
questionable meaning, and many of the parables of Christ, suggest that
Christian unity in love of all who believe to repentance, of all Christian
denominations and groups, is very important to God, is in fact the purpose
of the universe, and, is the one new commandment of Jesus that none of us
Christians have yet accomplished.

Now that I've got that general Cu list disclaimer out of the way, Larry, I
want to say that, as I mentioned also to Barry, I greatly enjoy hearing this
Cu subject in discussion here among brethren in Christ, and I very much hope
it continues here to be discussed in depth by all on this list because of
how important I, for one, believe it is to the cause of Cu.  I think I may
have stated how I feel about a lot of the things you've said here, Larry, in
my response I made to Barry's first post.  I'll try to make this comment
here to you a little shorter, and try not to repeat myself too much.

You know, the odd thing to me is that I think I also agree with the vast
majority of what you've said here, Larry, as much as I agreed with most of
what Barry said in his first post.  I think we are all three saying a lot of
the same general things, though there may be some differences in the
details, or maybe in the wording, which differences I, for one, am having
trouble identifiying precisely, if any.

I certainly agree, Larry, that, being born in the flesh of a human, we all
have a sin nature which is at odds with the Spirit of God.  I must say,
however, that I have never much cared for the phrase "born in sin", simply
because I can't imagine a more sinless creature than a new born babe.  But
by the time that babe reaches some age where God would hold him accountable
for his deeds,(which age only God knows for sure), I would certainly agree
with you, that some kind of sin would certainly be present in the life of
any adult, accountable individual, and that no one, except Jesus, was or
will ever be sinless in his own actions.  And according to the Bible, it's a
point that bears repeating:

Proverbs 14:12  There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end
thereof are the ways of death.
Proverbs 16:25  There is a way that seemeth right unto a man, but the end
thereof are the ways of death.
John 14:6  Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no
man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

For somewhat the same reason, I really don't think the phrase "we are all
sinners" is exactly correct as applied to Christians, because when we repent
and claim the blood of Jesus, we are "born again" sinless in Christ, and
remain accounted sinless by God, until or unless we either knowingly return
to some former sin, or become newly aware of some sin which we are now
doing, and refuse to repent.  The fact that we may sin in the future,
probably will sin, and will then need to repent of that sin as well, doesn't
obviate the fact that we are presently, in Christ, innocent until otherwise
proven guilty.

We may have to repent seven times in a day, but having now repented, we are
all, for now, the fully sinless righteousness of God.

2 Corinthians 5:21  For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin;
that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

I think this process of sincere repentance as fast as we learn of our
errors, is what you correctly described in the things you said, Larry, and
is in full agreement with scripture.

>
> When one is born again then the process of regeneration and sanctification
begin
> in us. These things don't happen over night. Rather, they are a gradual
and
> persistent change of heart over time. How fast one person regenerates and
moves
> along the process of sanctification is the will of God. But we who are
earnest
> in our want of these things and do our part by learning the word of God
and how
> its applications to us and living will move along these paths faster than
one
> who neglects to study and learn the word of our God that He gave us. Thus
a
> sinner who is born again, regardless of the sin be it a sexual sin or
murder,
> will be forgiven and welcome in God's church. But for the born again
experience
> to be real, there must be real, very real acknowledgment and repentance in
ones
> heart, if these are not present, one is fooling themselves that they walk
with
> our Lord Jesus.

Philippians 2:12 ¶ Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as
in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own
salvation with fear and trembling.
13  For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good
pleasure.

Still, there is a sin related to Cu, which I think has coninued to "fester",
to go on without sincere or effective repentance for a long time.  I think
pretty much all Christians have been insufficiently aware of the past, and
largely still present, sin of Christian disunity.  So the idea that "we are
all sinners", or the Bible quote, "There is not one righteous, no not one"
may, in fact, have special meaning with regard to Christian unity.

I believe that in this sense, all of us members of the body of Christ are
sinning, and remain in a form of unrighteousness, by not fully obeying the
new commandment of Jesus to love one another enough to make the world see
it; the sin of not making the sacrifice of laying down our lives for all
other brethren in Christ, as He did for all of us Christians, regardless of
Christian denomination or group.

But otherwise I largely agree with everything you've said here, Larry.  I
most especially like your comment:

>God's work is in the dirt, with the
> heathen and that can't be done by a people, by a church which hides its
self
> from the non-believer.

Jesus took a lot of flak for hanging with publicans and sinners.  Those were
the ones He wanted to reach, and so should we since we know that, as the
Bible says,
1 Corinthians 6:11  And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are
sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the
Spirit of our God.

It's like Dan Gordon once said on this list, it is our job to "love the
sinner to Christ".

Love in Jesus,
Tim