The other night ed tv had a program on Deseret ca. 1850. It was explicitly cited as an attempt to establish a Mormon Nation according to Zionist principles. There are Mormon Zionists, Lutheran Zionists etc. who believe that Zionism is the rightful domain, even the solemn duty of those who live by the New Covenant. Zionism in this sense does not have to be associated with a return to geographic kingdoms of Israel or Judah nor does it have to be secessionist. FWP. On Tue, 11 Aug 1998, Franklin Wayne Poley wrote: > My idea of what a Christian Culture/Nation/Society would be? It would be > a nation in which the people were highly motivated (enthusiastic) about > living, individually and collectively according to the teachings of Jesus > Christ as best they understand them. By that definition the Mormon > Zionist attempt to establish Deseret ca. 1850 was an attempt to establish > a nation with a Christian Constitution. It is inconceivable to me that an > individual would profess to be a dedicated Christian and yet not be > enthusiastic about also having his society living as a Christian nation. > FWP. > > On Tue, 11 Aug 1998, Virginia Raines wrote: > > > > > -> SNETNEWS Mailing List > > > > Helloo-- > > > > Everyone has some points they understand and help make the picture more > > clear on this topic. But, sometimes extraneous info clouds the picture, > > too. > > > > Here are a few quick thoughts, by no means comprehensive. > > > > I do think most nations which WE identify as Christian: > > > > 1. Would not necessarily use that term to describe themselves. > > 2. Were not necessarily following the red letter portion. > > 3. Used secular power to promote and secure their religious position. > > 4. Primarily identified with a "branch" of Christendom, particularly (Roman) > > Catholicism, which was more important than Christianity per se. > > 5. Used Christianity as a means to promote and maintain authority at all > > levels. > > > > Whether or not one identifies oneself as a "Christian" is irrelevant in the > > scope of determining whether a country or culture is actually Christian. > > One either plays semantic games or admits there are larger contexts for > > definition. If I belong to a group that calls itself true Christian but we > > follow beliefs which are extrabiblical, then we run the risk of being > > dismissed as non-Christian, even if we can try to establish some chain of > > authority back to the Bible. > > > > During the time I've been on Snet, it's been a mystery to me what FWP really > > thinks. I just don't appreciate the lambasting back and forth that makes it > > impossible to focus on whatever is truly relevant and meaningful in these > > topics. Trying to make smart arss remarks is not the way to get someone > > else to understand your point. > > > > Best regards, > > Virginia Raines > > > > P.S. It's true that most of the pomp and circumstance around Christianity > > was adopted from the pagans. I think FWP knows this very well of all > > people. And, I didn't see much consideration of Dr. Ken's thoughts per se. > > > > For better or worse, I am very interested in finding out what people think > > was the real motivation and purpose behind the founding of our country and > > the intention of those who were directly involved. > > > > Braden, Flash wrote: > > > > > -> SNETNEWS Mailing List > > > > > > No, Ken. Christ drove the money changers from the temple > > > because he was intolerant of disrespect for God. He forgave > > > people their sins, but instructed them to sin no more. He > > > lived God's law perfectly and expected everybody else to > > > strive for perfection in themselves. > > > > > > He was no libertarian. He UNDERSTOOD sin, but he never ever > > > gave it his stamp of approval or tolerance. Read the book > > > again. > > > > > > I don't think there has ever been a Christian nation. The > > > early nations that claimed to be Christian were mostly under > > > the control of the Judaisers and Pagan Sun-worshippers > > > who had captured the church with the help of Constantine > > > after the Council of Nicea in 325AD. > > > > > > >From them we get Sunday, Easter Bunnies, Christmas, and the > > > crucifixion *after* Passover. > > > > > > -Flash-> > > > > > > Analytical Pentecostal > > > > > > > ---------- > > > > From: Dr. Ken Larsen[SMTP:kencan@...] > > > > Sent: Sunday, August 09, 1998 5:38 PM > > > > To: Franklin Wayne Poley > > > > Cc: roundtable@...; team-commonlaw-l@...; > > > > snetnews@... > > > > Subject: SNET: Re: Why There are no Christian Nations Today. > > > > > > > > > > > > -> SNETNEWS Mailing List > > > > > > > > May I humbly suggest that a Christian nation would never call itself a > > > > "Christian" nation? It seems to me that the teachings of Christ, as > > > > stated > > > > in the Christian Bible indicate that Christ would never ask government > > > > to > > > > enforce, or even acknowledge His teachings. His comments on paying > > > > tribute > > > > to Caesar suggest he intended a complete separation between the things > > > > of > > > > the church and the things of the state. He told Pilate his kingdom > > > > was not > > > > of this world. > > > > > > > > Christ was the perfect example of tolerance, with stories such as the > > > > Good > > > > Samaritan and his conversation with the Samaritan whore at the well. > > > > If > > > > Christ were elected President of a country, I think he would preach > > > > the > > > > strict enforcement of America's First Amendment, with a very liberal > > > > interpretation of the word "religion." He would tolerate Muslems, > > > > Jews, > > > > Hindus, Atheists, Pagans, and yes, even members of the Church of the > > > > Hemp > > > > Goddess. He would never ask anyone to call his country a Christian > > > > country. He would preach his moral code and beliefs at every > > > > opportunity, > > > > but never ask anyone to enforce them. I believe the American > > > > Constitution > > > > was written to establish a truly Christian nation. Too bad we never > > > > tried > > > > it. > > > > > > > > Ken > > > > > > > > At 4:01 PM -0700 8/9/98, Franklin Wayne Poley wrote: > > > > >>From ca. 300 AD to ca. 1900 AD there were dozens of officially > > > > designated > > > > >Christian nations. Today there are none. Surprising isn't it that no > > > > >nation would identify itself as Christian when 1-2 billion > > > > individuals > > > > >call themselves Christian. Certainly this is a matter of importance, > > > > of > > > > >"substance" for social philosophers as we find on this list. So what > > > > is > > > > >the answer to this "great puzzlement"? One answer I would give is > > > > that > > > > >such a nation today would quickly separate wheat from chaff by the > > > > very > > > > >nature of the socio-political process and that would be a matter of > > > > great > > > > >consternation to all the phonies who can score cheap points with > > > > their > > > > >pious platitudes, metaphysical mumbo jumbo and lame liturgy while > > > > calling > > > > >this "substance". On a list of phonies like christianunity I am > > > > suddenly > > > > >considered as being of "substance" when I quote the Bible. Forget > > > > about > > > > >comprehension. They have none so they will expect none of me. In a > > > > real > > > > >Christian nation/society/culture/civilization the social-political > > > > >process would proceed towards excellence "Be ye therefore perfect > > > > even as > > > > >your Father in Heaven is perfect" (Red Letters) via reasoning "Let us > > > > >reason together saith the Lord...." (Isaiah). Therefore if there is a > > > > >complaint in a village of such a culture (like the False Creek > > > > Village) > > > > >about public safety or poverty or unemployment or health care or > > > > >affordable, quality housing or policing or.... people would reason > > > > with > > > > >their neighbours about about how things can be done in future to meet > > > > >criteria of good-better-best. As St. Luke said of Jesus "(He) went > > > > about > > > > >doing good". However, a daily life meeting the criterion of "good" in > > > > a > > > > >multitude of this world ways is anathema to the christianunity crowd. > > > > >Desecrating Scripture by quoting it without comprehension is the "way > > > > >of life" of the Bible thumping churcheaucrat. > > > > >FWP. > > > > > > > > > > > > -> Send "subscribe snetnews " to majordomo@... > > > > -> Posted by: "Dr. Ken Larsen" <kencan@...> > > > > > > > > > > -> Send "subscribe snetnews " to majordomo@... > > > -> Posted by: "Braden, Flash" <cbraden@...> > > > > > > > > > > -> Send "subscribe snetnews " to majordomo@... > > -> Posted by: Virginia Raines <rainesco@...> > > > > > > *** To subscribe to list discussions on: a model sustainable village for > 5,000, www.onelist.com/subscribe.cgi/FalseCreek; a robotized megafloat, > www.onelist.com/subscribe.cgi/TradeandConvention; the world's first direct > electronic democracy, www.onelist.com/subscribe.cgi/BCPolitics *** > > > -- > To unsubscribe, send ANY message to <christianunity-unsubscribe@...> > *** To subscribe to list discussions on: a model sustainable village for 5,000, www.onelist.com/subscribe.cgi/FalseCreek; a robotized megafloat, www.onelist.com/subscribe.cgi/TradeandConvention; the world's first direct electronic democracy, www.onelist.com/subscribe.cgi/BCPolitics ***