Dear Timothy , thank you very much for your post . I am leaving on a trip at 3 AM to-morrow morning and will be back only Monday Nov 9 late . So please have patience . Greetings and all the best Klaus M. > -----Original Message----- > From: TIMOTHY C WARLICK [SMTP:WARLICK@...] > Sent: Sunday, November 01, 1998 5:45 PM > To: Klaus Meier > Subject: Re: [CU] Re: [Christianity] Keeping the Unity of the Spirit > > Dear klaus, > > It is always good to hear from you. I have not received any information > about the history you mentioned, and I look forward to getting it from > you. > If you sent it by snail mail, who knows how long it might take from > Germany > to USA? You may want to wait a bit and see if it gets through to me. But > if you want to try again sometime, here is my address: > > If you need my email address, it is warlick@... > > My snail mail adress is as follows: > > Tim Warlick > 3220 S. Erie Ave. > Tulsa, Oklahoma 74135 > USA > > I like your example of speaking in tongues. It is a fine gift from God, > and > it is one which I have not been given, at least not in the same way a lot > of > people have it. Tulsa is the home of the Oral Roberts Ministries which is > among the largest and foremost of the "charismatic" groups, so I have a > lot > of Christian friends here who do speak in tongues, in the way that they > understand it to mean. And I have had several conversations with such > friends on the subject. I refer to Oral Roberts Ministries (ORM) > specifically, because they do have a strong influence on some local > Christians who I know (as well as internationally, maybe you've heard of > them?). > > I almost hesitate to mention the Oral Roberts Ministries, because some > other > Christians are offended by the requests for money they have sometimes made > to their supporters, and I guess I must confess that at one time I was > mistakenly offended at them for this reason also. But the Holy Spirit > showed me recently how hard it can be for Christians to find the money to > support their own ministry, in which they feel personally called to serve > the Lord. I for one, have learned well how not to judge them in any way > for > seeking money from their supporters. > > There is I think, an important issue related to Christian unity regarding > speaking in tongues, and one which I think ORM has been very much on the > side of Christian unity. > > One of the central scriptures in this issue is this: > (1 Cor 12:30 KJV) Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with > tongues? > do all interpret? > Such charismatics as the ORM have noted that this does not say that all > can't speak in tongues. They do this as a way to encourage those who may > have the gift, to not be afraid to try to find it, to use it, and to know > that they have it. > > Another central scripture in this issue is this: > (Mark 16:17 KJV) And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my > name > shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; > > Unfortunately, there have been some charismatic Christians who have > mistakenly gone beyond what I believe was intended by such leaders as the > ORM, or was intednded by the Bible. Other "extremist" charismatic > Christians mistakenly take these scriptures to mean that *all* must speak > in > tongues in order to prove that they have the signs, such as speaking in > tongues, in order prove they do in fact believe. They use it as proof > that > their own group of "charismatic", "gifted", Christians are better that > other > Christians. Or even worse, some use it to prove that they are the *only* > Christians. I believe such interpretation is wrong because it is > self-promoting, self-proving, and self-willed. Like the useage of > "self-willed" which you referred to, Klaus, I think such self-promoting > interpretations are the kind the Holy Spirit takes no part in. > > God gave the gifts to us to serve each other in the body of Christ, not to > prove one Christian group over another, among ourselves. It's an evil > generation that seeks signs in order to believe. The signs are for those > outside the body of Christ, for those who don't believe. And if one has > the > gift, and the other does not have it, it is required that the Christian > who > has the gift uses it to serve the Christian who does not have it, to > promote > Christian unity, and not to divide us from one another. The ORM, for one > group, has been foremost in trying to to teach Christians to use such > gifts > to promote Christian unity, and not to cause further division. > > It is just as wrong to reject other Christians for *not* speaking in > tongues, as it is to reject other Christians who *do* speak in tongues. > You > said it best: > >I should rejoice when someone has more love than myself, more of the Holy > >Spirit more of anything that God gives. > > I do greatly rejoice that I have brothers and sisters in Christ who speak > with tongues, because they use that gift to serve the whole body of > Christ, > including those of us Christians who are not so gifted. And I, for one, > believe that this great gift from God, the gift of speaking in tongues, > may > increase dramatically in these latter days, and may be seen in even > greater > forms in these latter days. > > I'd like to say more, later, but I've gone on too long already. Love to > hear your comments. And where is everybody else? I know we all get busy > with other stuff from time to time, myself included, but I hope others > will > comment too, as time permits. Any comments would be greatly appreciated. > > Love in Jesus, > > Tim > > -----Original Message----- > From: Klaus Meier <klausm@...> > To: 'christianunity@...' <christianunity@...> > Date: Saturday, October 31, 1998 11:56 AM > Subject: RE: [CU] Re: [Christianity] Keeping the Unity of the Spirit > > > >Halo dear Tim , warm greetings . I was waiting for you to respond in some > >way to the piece of history I wrote out for you . But maybe it went to > the > >wrong address. I am still trying to find the perfect and failproof way to > >store, classify and then also answer the posts I get. Please forgive . > > I have no idea what measure God uses as He gives the Holy Spirit. Take > >speaking in tongues for instance. It is a charisma , a gift from God . If > it > >is a gift nobody can actually posses it . I think also here the word > >applies: The Holy Spirit withdraws to the same degree and to the same > >measure and at the same time as self -will comes in . I make a > difference > >between will, which God also gave us , namely the free will, and the self > >-will. The word indicates already that it starts with self and probably > also > >ends with self. What point is there for speaking in tongues when there is > >nobody around to interpret ? What point is there in speaking in tongues > >anyway ? If it is to glorify God , that is one thing but if only the > >slightest bit of self glory comes in , being of the same spirit as the > self > >will, it will also have the same effect on the Holy Spirit. > >All I can do is ask that Gods will be done , in all the charisma, in all > the > >things , in all my life. Do I hate my brother whom I see? Do I kill > someone > >? do I divorce ? am I unfaithful in look and thought and then deed? I > doubt > >very much if any of these things can be present and at the same time the > >Holy Spirit. > >You ask if I believe that the Holy Spirit is given to people in different > >amounts. yes off course , but does that make any difference ? Not to me. > I > >should rejoice when someone has more love than myself, more of the Holy > >Spirit more of anything that God gives. > >Warm greetings and let me know what you think > >much love , agape love , the love that embraces judgement > >your Klaus Meier > > > > -- > To unsubscribe, send ANY message to > <christianunity-unsubscribe@...>