[cog] MORE Thoughts from Some Friends

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From: "Stephen Hall" <sossteve@...>
Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 11:25:44 -0700

EDITOR'S NOTE:

I'm sorry we can't include in these postings all the responses we've
received on the subject of our edition entitled "Do We Forgive or Avenge
Terrorism?"  We can't just because of the shear volume of those responses.
I am grateful, however, for all of them - even those that did not agree with
the views I expressed in the edition.  I have tried to respond personally to
as many e-mails as I could separately.   There has been a small number of
responses that were so filled with hatred and so lacking in biblical
foundation to support their views, that I have not and will not respond to
them at all.  But will pray for their authors.

The following contains a number of the responses we received because I
believe they shed a "new" or "different" light on the points we tried to
make in the edition.

Your brother,

Steve

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I'm a little surprised that today's postings (Thoughts from Some Friends)
did not seem to differentiate between PERSONAL vengeance, which we are to
leave to God, and GOVERNMENTAL exercise of "the sword" as agents of His
vengeance.  Rom. 13. Rulers are SUPPOSED to be "a terror to evildoers" and
"a revenger executing wrath upon him that doeth evil" (v.3,4). Of course,
the hard part is to support the government's execution of its God-given duty
without letting PERSONAL hatred and vengeance take root in my heart.

I am thrilled at the food and medicine drops for people in need, while at
the same time seeking to break the power of those exercising and exporting
terrorism. I/Many of us have prayed for godly wisdom for our President and
for his advisors, and this thrills me as an answer. God "in wrath
remember(s) mercy" and it's wonderful to see the USA doing the same.

As the movement of Afgan refugees takes place let us pray they come in
contact with the gospel - a difficult thing had they stayed home. Joe
Henriques, new VP at Moody grad school, whose parents came to our country
from Portugal and from Puerto Rico and found the Lord here, believes THAT is
why God moves individuals and people groups around - to put them where they
can hear the truth and seek Him. Acts 17:26,27.

Was also very happy to see the report of God's grace reaching out to that
stewardess just the day before she died! Doesn't He go to great lengths to
reach us - starting with the distance between His throneroom and Mt.
Calvary!

Carol Moore

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Steve~

I have been on this mailing list for a while now and I just wanted to add my
2 cents on the attacks. I know we must not let these people get away with
what they did, it was a terrible thing to see those towers come down and it
was aweful to see the hole in the Pentagon. But on the evening of the
attacks our pastor was leading a prayer service and actually lead us in a
prayer for Osama Bin Ladin himself. Yes we prayed for this man who was the
mastermind of such a terrible attack on innocent people. We asked that his
heart may be changed and that he would come to realize that what he did was
an affront to humanity. We prayed, simply for his salvation. If we can be
forgiven, so can he. One sin is no worse than any other in Gods eyes and we
are all sinners. Satan has such a hold on this man and I'm sure it breaks
Gods heart knowing that one of His creations has turned himself over to such
evil.

I pray every day for our president because he has a tough job to do. I pray
for his advisors and staff, they have a tough job to do. I pray for our
service men and women who are putting their lives on the line even as I type
this. AND I pray for those people who have been so mislead by the devil
himself.

Anyway thats just my 2 cents worth, such as it is.

Cindy Webster

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Dear Cindy,

What you have offered is far better than two cents worth Sis. We believers
have an absolute call in the Bible to lift up all these misguided people to
the Lord in prayer for His ministry of reconciliation. And I applaud your
Pastor and congregation for being obedient to that calling and pray others
will be willing to follow your example.

At the same time, I believe these terrorists must be held accountable for
the evil that they committed. We seek God's justice, not revenge. To do less
would be to validate their actions as acceptable and let anarchy loose in
the world. As God called Abraham, David, and others throughout the Bible to
war against evil, I believe He is calling us to that warfare now. And
everyone has a part in the warfare. That part is prayer. Prayer that ALL
(Usama Bin Laden, the terriorists, President Bush, all world leaders, our
troops, etc.) will be in submission to the will of the Father.

Thanks again for writing.

Your brother,
Steve
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Forwarded by Blue Grass

WASHINGTON - After President Bush met with Macedonian President Boris
Trajkovski in the White House this month, Bush invited his guest into his
private study. There, the two men knelt side by side in silent prayer.

White House aides didn't mention that devotional interlude when they
described Trajkovski's visit May 2 to reporters, and they were displeased to
learn that the private moment was about to become public.

Religion infuses the president's daily life. Bush, 54, starts every day on
his knees, praying. He reads the Bible each morning and studies a daily
Bible lesson. He often asks a Cabinet secretary to lead a prayer at the
beginning of Cabinet meetings. He says he frequently prays in the Oval
Office. He sometimes prays on the phone with a minister friend who lives in
Houston.

Bush's family, friends and longtime aides say faith helped him quit
drinking, find his vocation in politics and check his fiery temper. He says
it has made him more humble and tolerant.

"I find great comfort in my faith," he told Fox News last month. "It helps
me realize that I am a person that has a lot of responsibility, but I am
just a person -- nothing more than a human being who seeks redemption,
solace, and strength through something greater than me."

Overt expressions of faith by elected leaders ca! n make some Americans
uncomfortable. Some employees at the Justice Department say the daily prayer
sessions there, led by Attorney General John Ashcroft, make them feel they
might be expected to participate. Bush's appeals to the religious right
during his campaign made some people wary of his links to groups such as the
Christian Coalition and their socially conservative agenda.

"Americans want a president to have a private, individual faith," says
Philip Goff, director of the Center for the Study of Religion and American
Culture at Indiana University-Purdue University in Indianapolis. "What most
Americans are uncomfortable with is the institutions of church and state
overlapping." Religion has been central to Bush's life since 1985, when he
had a pivotal conversation with Rev. Billy Graham. At the time, Bush was in
his late 30s, hard partying and unfocused. He did not take his religion
seriously. Graham questioned him about his commitment to his faith, Bush
wrote in his autobiography, "A Charge to Keep", and "God planted the seed of
faith in my heart. It was the beginning of a new walk where I would recommit
my heart to Jesus Christ."

He was raised an Episcopalian but became a Methodist when he got married and
joined the church of his wife, Laura. He spoke of his beliefs often during
the campaign and said at his inauguration, "We are guided by a power larger
than ourselves who creates us equal in his image."

Bush isn't reluctant to describe his active faith. "I pray all the time," he
said in the Fox News interview. "When I am alone in the Oval Office (and)
something might be on my mind ... I will pray. I don't think that I could be
sitting here as comfortable as I am and as peaceful as I am had it not been
for my religion."

Bush's prayers in the Oval Office are usually solitary. But Trajkovski, like
Bush, is a Methodist. The Macedonian president is also a lay minister.
Before the visit, Trajkovski's staff suggested to White House aides that he
would welcome a chance to pray with Bush. When Trajkovski entered the Oval
Office for ! the formal meeting, Bush recognized a pin on his lapel. It was
the emblem of the United Methodist Church, a cross and a flame signifying
the Holy Spirit. After their official conversation, Bush invited Trajkovski
to join him in prayer.

Bush's frequent references to God and his faith make Barry Lynn, executive
director of Americans United for Separation of Church and State, cringe.
"When a president wears his religion on his sleeve as visibly as this one
does ... he isn't simply using the bully pulpit to speak his mind," Lynn
says. "He's trying to impose his religious views on other people."

Some critics thought Bush exploited religion during the primary election
campaign. To build support among traditional Republican voters before a
hard-fought South Carolina primary, he visited Bob Jones University, an
evangelical school in Greenville that banned interracial dating and whose
founder called Catholicism a cult. Another time, in a debate, he was asked
what political philosopher or thinker he most identified with. He answered
simply, "Christ, because he changed my heart."

Since taking office, Bush has met often with clerics, including Catholic
bishops and African American ministers, at the White House and while
traveling. When U.S. military personnel were being detained in China last
mon! th, he asked American officials to be sure they had Bibles if they
wanted them. He has proposed that religious groups operate some federal
programs for the needy.

"Jesus says, 'Keep your piety in private,' " says Martin Marty, a religious
historian. "People like the notion that piety shapes a president's morality
... but they know that policies backed by religion have to be scrutinized
more than others."

Kirbyjon Caldwell is senior pastor at Windsor Village United Methodist
Church in Houston and a Bush friend who sometimes prays with the president
over the phone. Caldwell says Bush's faith is such a significant part of his
life that he can't help but talk about it.

"The president's faith is extraordinarily important to him, not just for
spiritual reasons but for professional, emotional, social and family
reasons," Caldwell says. "The president allows his faith to permeate his
entire being. He does not keep his faith in a box and open it when he's in
trouble."

However, he doesn't impose it on anybody, his aides say. They see his
expressions of faith as one key to his character. "I find it very
welcoming," says press secretary Ari Fleischer, who is Jewish. "It's a
reminder for everyone about the importance of faith in our lives, and the
president practices his so powerfully and so privately that it serves as a
simple reminder of the American tradition of having a strong faith."

Bush often attends church on Sundays, including services in the chapel at
Camp David, Md., the presidential retreat, but he has not joined a church in
Washington.

Other presidents have had deep religious convictions. During his presidency,
Jimmy Carter, a Baptist, taught Sunday school. Richard Nixon, a Quaker,
invited evangelists to the White House. Abraham Lincoln never joined a
church but rarely gave a speech without references to God. Bill Clinton, a
Baptist, recited lengthy Bible passages from memory. John Adams, a
Unitarian, studied for the ministry before becoming a lawyer.

Bush has said he doesn't think of himself as an advocate for his religion,
but he doesn't intend to hide his faith. "I am ... a lowly sinner who sought
redemption and found it," he told USA TODAY in January. "That doesn't make
me better than anybody, it just adds perspective, I hope. I think people are
going to find that in tough times ... they're going to see a steady hand
because the rock on which I stand is something other than the moment, the
emotion of the day. Faith can be a steadying influence."


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Subject: Pakistani Editorial

Hello,

The following editorial is taken from the web page of The Daily Dawn,
an English-language newspaper in Pakistan. The address is:

http://www.dawn.com/2001/10/08/op.htm.

You might find it informative concerning the Muslim rejection of
Osama Bin Laden's Jihad.

Best Regards,

David Mathews


Avoiding Bin Laden's trap

By Bernard Haykel


The war America is engaged in after the attack on the World Trade Center
(WTC) and the Pentagon is a war for the hearts and minds of average Muslims
around the world. Osama bin Laden, if indeed he is the mastermind behind the
attacks, has set a trap for the US into which it must not fall.

By attacking the US as part of a jihad ("a holy war"), Bin Laden is in fact
claiming to Muslims to represent their grievances and to represent real
Islam. He is in effect saying: "Muslims, I share your grievances unlike your
corrupt and authoritarian governments; I am the only one doing something
about it. I have destroyed the symbols of American capitalism and stopped
the heartbeat of world finance which the US dominates."

The US as well as moderate Muslims the world over must unite and deny him
this symbolic victory and must not accept to engage him in combat on these
terms. We should not let him define the terms of our intellectual and
symbolic battle. As a professor of Islamic law I have researched the law of
jihad and can state unequivocally that the war Bin Laden has engaged us in
cannot be labelled a jihad.

Furthermore, I believe a strong case can be made that he has acted contrary
to the tenets of Islam and can be ostracized from the community of believing
Muslims. Moderate Muslims will agree with me, certainly, as they are
horrified by the Sept 11 attacks and are desperate to have these
disassociated from their religion. The West
must provide moderate Muslims a way out of Bin Laden's trap.

According to Islamic law there are at least six reasons why Bin Laden's
barbaric violence cannot fall under the rubric of jihad: 1) Individuals and
organizations cannot declare a jihad, only states can; 2) One cannot kill
innocent women and children when conducting a jihad; 3) One cannot kill
Muslims in a jihad; 4) One cannot fight a jihad against a country in which
Muslims can freely practise their religion and proselytize Islam; 5)
Prominent Muslim jurists around the world have condemned these attacks and
their condemnation forms a juristic consensus (ijma') against Bin Laden's
actions (This
consensus renders his actions un-Islamic); 6) The welfare and interest of
the Muslim community (maslaha) is being harmed by Bin Laden's actions and
this equally makes them un-Islamic.

Americans have been baffled by reports that Muslims do not like, and even
hate the US. Muslims do not hate America. As proof of this we have: seven
million Muslims living in the US; foreign Muslims, like many others around
the world, clamour to obtain US immigration visas; Muslims consume American
products and emulate American fashions (intellectual, social and sartorial);
Muslims place the bulk of their money in US financial institutions; the list
goes on and on. What many Muslims undeniably resent about America, however,
are American foreign policies towards Iraq, Iran, Israel/Palestine and a
complicit policy of supporting corrupt and authoritarian regimes all over
the Muslim world.

Yet despite this resentment only 4,000 Muslims actively seek to destroy
America.  These 4,000 Muslims are Bin Laden's foot soldiers. Let us remember
that in 20 years of recruitment Bin Laden has only been able to recruit
4,000 men.

This group, otherwise known as the Arab-Afghans, have theological and legal
beliefs that are at odds with the remaining one billion-plus Muslims in the
world today. They are also at odds with those of their supporters, the
Taliban, who, for their part, are fanatical Hanafis of the Deoband school.
Surely, 4,000 men do not represent the entirety of the Islamic peoples - and
we should hammer this point home continually. We should also deny Bin Laden
the opportunity of feeding off Muslim resentment and his claim to represent
them.

There are practical steps the US government can take that will take the wind
out of Bin Laden's sails and sidestep the trap he has laid. I will begin
with the most obvious measures. They are:

1. The US or western troops and special forces should not be sent into
Afghanistan with the aim of arresting or killing Bin Laden. He has thought
about this scenario and desires it. A military attack on him would provide a
double victory: if he is killed he dies a martyr
and symbol of resistance to western domination; he also gets to kill a
number of US soldiers and tarnishes the image of America in the minds of
ordinary Muslims.

Afghanistan is the most backward and probably the poorest country in the
Islamic world; the image of the most powerful nation stomping on it will be
a public relations disaster and will destabilize Arab regimes.

The best course is to encourage Muslim countries to lead the fight against
Bin Laden, to support the Northern Alliance who have 15,000 troops in
Afghanistan and to work on the Pakistani moderates to get involved in the
fight. If retribution, as seems to be the case, has to take place and
America must feel it is the prime agent in the pursuit of justice, then no
military action can afford not to involve moderate Muslim forces and their
cooperation. This is not a plea for war, far from it: there is too much
bellicose rhetoric as it is.

2. It is important to stop using inflammatory language, such as President
Bush's statement that this is a crusade. Such a word evokes monstrous
historical memories in the minds of Muslims, namely barbaric Europeans
rampaging through the Eastern Mediterranean. Furthermore, Crusade connotes
Christianity versus Islam and this is
not the right message. The infelicity of this locution has presumably been
brought to the attention of President Bush.

3. Washington must publish a list of all the Muslims - men, women and
children - who died in the WTC attack, since Islamic law categorically
prohibits the murder of such innocents.

4. We in the US must engage our own Muslim community leaders here in the US,
and, particularly, send the respected ones among them with these facts to
the Middle East and South Asia to meet impartial and respected Islamic legal
scholars, people who are respected by the man on the street and who are
clearly not in the employ of their
respective governments.

Scholars in Makkah, Madina and Riyadh will be central in this regard, as
will scholars in India and Pakistan. These scholars must be convinced to
issue fatwas (legal opinions) declaring Bin Laden's teachings and actions
illegal. Because it is prohibited by mainstream Islam, they cannot declare
Bin Laden an infidel (a practice called
takfir) and we should not expect this of them. These opinions will help
bolster the consensus mentioned above and may convince the Taliban that they
need to hand Bin Laden over for trial to for his alleged role in New York,
Washington and other terrorist attacks.

I think if we take the steps outlined above we may be able to ostracize Bin
Laden from the Muslim community and energize moderate Muslims to take centre
stage again. America will win the war as will the vast majority of Muslims.