[faithandlife] Re: [FaithandLife] A Sacrament Is A Sacrament

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From: "The Rev GDVWiebe SSC.,PhD" <gdvw@...>
Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2005 19:20:13 -0000 (GMT)
> Fr. Perkins+: I do not know where you studied sacramental theology but
wherever it was you clearly got the point which is exactly as you cite
it to be. I am told that you also make Rosaries (the most blessed of the
sacramentals). I used to have a parishioner that made them many years
ago-initially for theraputic purposes (arthritis as memory serves) but
soon found a great apostolate  handing them out to people he visited at
the local Laguna Honda SNF/Long Term Care facility (some 700 people
then) in the City of San Francisco. Do you provide opportunities for
public recitation in your parish? That brings many wonderful graces as I
suspect you know. Blessings on Lancelot Andrewes Day 2005. GDVW+
>
> While I personally regard the 39 Articles as historical and as a very
> useful
> guide to interpreting scripture from an Anglican perspective and not
> binding, I have to agree with Article 26 on this point Concerning
> +Robinson
> since he was consecrated by valid Bishops in Apostolic succession.  His
> consecration is unfortunately valid and so his participation in the
> sacraments will be valid.
>
> The people who receive the sacraments from him will receive them if done
> properly and with the right intention  in spite of the sinfulness of his
> life style. This does not excuse him from his own personal responsibility
> for his own sins and so he will have to answer for his actions to Christ
> on
> judgment day.
>
> As to women priestesses I do not believe their orders to be valid as that
> the practice does not have scripture or tradition to support it.  Not to
> mention that they cannot function as an "icon" of Christ.
>
> Since the role of women was not intended to include holy orders as far as
> I
> can tell, I do not personally believe God would honor any invocation to
> impart the gifts to ordain them to holy orders regardless of who the
> bishop
> was since they were not meant to function in this role.
>
> Thus any effort to dispense a sacrament on their part would not be
> sacramental and would be in essence a spiritual dud.  All beauty with no
> substance.
>
> Bill+
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "The Rev GDVWiebe SSC.,PhD" <gdvw@...>
> To: <faithandlife@...>
> Sent: Wednesday, September 21, 2005 5:42 PM
> Subject: [FaithandLife] A Sacrament Is A Sacrament
>
>
>>> Frater: Sorry but no informed AC can accept this statement without a
>> pair of caveats at least and the principle of oekonomia. Otherwise we
>> end up in chaos. If a man is consecrated by at least 2 (Pedalion/Rudder:
>> Apostolic Canons 1 & 2) valid bishops then he is a bishop in the
>> Apostolic succession and that is that. If the three rules for
>> conferring/confecting a Sacrament (Form, Matter and Intention) are
>> observed then like it or not that sacramental act is a valid sacrament.
>>
>> We can ask: Can we ordain a woman to the priesthood? The answer is that
>> we cannot any more than we can baptise a tree. Therefore one of the
>> three requirements(Matter) is not met and the act is not achieved.
>>                                                                      We
>> can ask:Can Mass/Holy Communion be lawfully celebrated by a parrot. The
>> answer is obviously not and one of the three portions of the
>> requirement(Minister) fails and the act is not achieved.
>>                                                            We can ask:
>> Can we baptise by saying: In the name of the creator, sustainer and
>> enabler. The answer is obviously no and one of the three requirements
>> (formula) fails and the act is not achieved.          "...the Sacraments
>> remain valid."
>>>
>>>          We then come to the question of 'can we do something'. If the
>> answer is in the affirmative then we must ask 'should we do
>> this'? The two are related but the former is not dependent on
>> the latter.
>>                           Father DiBiasi remarks that the
>> events in New Hampshire should not have happened but I do not
>> think that he has suggested that the act itself was not valid.
>> Blessings. GDVW+
>>                                         I disagree. While I
>> don't think we can definitely say they are not valid,
>>> I
>>> don't think there can be any confidence that they are valid.
>>>
>>> If it were only a question of Robinson being a sinner, then of course
>>> the
>>> sacraments would be valid, as they are with us. But it's much more than
>>> that. It is a question of intent. Should we really give the Episcopal
>>> Church
>>> of Griswold and Robinson such a benefit of the doubt, that we affirm
>>> that
>>> they (i.e. Griswold and Robinson in particular) intend to perpetuate
>>> the
>>> (One Holy Catholic and Apostolic) Faith in their ordinations? I don't
>>> think
>>> they do. Given their commitments and beliefs, it is fundamentally a
>>> different religion. They may use an appropriate form, but they do not
>>> intend
>>> to perpetuate the Catholic Faith--which makes them more akin to
>>> Mormons--who
>>> use approprite words in Baptism, but whose sacraments the Church has
>>> consistently rejected due to invalid intent.
>>>
>>> To put it another way, to insist that their sacraments are valid, is to
>>> insist that the religion they believe and intend to perpetuate is
>>> Apostolic
>>> Christianity.
>>>
>>> Let's not do that.
>>>
>>> GCM+
>>>
>>>
>>>
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>>>
>>
>>
>>
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