Fr. Wiebe+
When you get a chance could you send me an e-mail direct at
wperkin2@...
Thanks,
Bill+
----- Original Message -----
From: "The Rev GDVWiebe SSC.,PhD" <gdvw@...>
To: <faithandlife@...>
Sent: Thursday, September 22, 2005 3:20 PM
Subject: Re: [FaithandLife] A Sacrament Is A Sacrament
>> Fr. Perkins+: I do not know where you studied sacramental theology but
> wherever it was you clearly got the point which is exactly as you cite
> it to be. I am told that you also make Rosaries (the most blessed of the
> sacramentals). I used to have a parishioner that made them many years
> ago-initially for theraputic purposes (arthritis as memory serves) but
> soon found a great apostolate handing them out to people he visited at
> the local Laguna Honda SNF/Long Term Care facility (some 700 people
> then) in the City of San Francisco. Do you provide opportunities for
> public recitation in your parish? That brings many wonderful graces as I
> suspect you know. Blessings on Lancelot Andrewes Day 2005. GDVW+
>>
>> While I personally regard the 39 Articles as historical and as a very
>> useful
>> guide to interpreting scripture from an Anglican perspective and not
>> binding, I have to agree with Article 26 on this point Concerning
>> +Robinson
>> since he was consecrated by valid Bishops in Apostolic succession. His
>> consecration is unfortunately valid and so his participation in the
>> sacraments will be valid.
>>
>> The people who receive the sacraments from him will receive them if done
>> properly and with the right intention in spite of the sinfulness of his
>> life style. This does not excuse him from his own personal responsibility
>> for his own sins and so he will have to answer for his actions to Christ
>> on
>> judgment day.
>>
>> As to women priestesses I do not believe their orders to be valid as that
>> the practice does not have scripture or tradition to support it. Not to
>> mention that they cannot function as an "icon" of Christ.
>>
>> Since the role of women was not intended to include holy orders as far as
>> I
>> can tell, I do not personally believe God would honor any invocation to
>> impart the gifts to ordain them to holy orders regardless of who the
>> bishop
>> was since they were not meant to function in this role.
>>
>> Thus any effort to dispense a sacrament on their part would not be
>> sacramental and would be in essence a spiritual dud. All beauty with no
>> substance.
>>
>> Bill+
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "The Rev GDVWiebe SSC.,PhD" <gdvw@...>
>> To: <faithandlife@...>
>> Sent: Wednesday, September 21, 2005 5:42 PM
>> Subject: [FaithandLife] A Sacrament Is A Sacrament
>>
>>
>>>> Frater: Sorry but no informed AC can accept this statement without a
>>> pair of caveats at least and the principle of oekonomia. Otherwise we
>>> end up in chaos. If a man is consecrated by at least 2 (Pedalion/Rudder:
>>> Apostolic Canons 1 & 2) valid bishops then he is a bishop in the
>>> Apostolic succession and that is that. If the three rules for
>>> conferring/confecting a Sacrament (Form, Matter and Intention) are
>>> observed then like it or not that sacramental act is a valid sacrament.
>>>
>>> We can ask: Can we ordain a woman to the priesthood? The answer is that
>>> we cannot any more than we can baptise a tree. Therefore one of the
>>> three requirements(Matter) is not met and the act is not achieved.
>>> We
>>> can ask:Can Mass/Holy Communion be lawfully celebrated by a parrot. The
>>> answer is obviously not and one of the three portions of the
>>> requirement(Minister) fails and the act is not achieved.
>>> We can ask:
>>> Can we baptise by saying: In the name of the creator, sustainer and
>>> enabler. The answer is obviously no and one of the three requirements
>>> (formula) fails and the act is not achieved. "...the Sacraments
>>> remain valid."
>>>>
>>>> We then come to the question of 'can we do something'. If the
>>> answer is in the affirmative then we must ask 'should we do
>>> this'? The two are related but the former is not dependent on
>>> the latter.
>>> Father DiBiasi remarks that the
>>> events in New Hampshire should not have happened but I do not
>>> think that he has suggested that the act itself was not valid.
>>> Blessings. GDVW+
>>> I disagree. While I
>>> don't think we can definitely say they are not valid,
>>>> I
>>>> don't think there can be any confidence that they are valid.
>>>>
>>>> If it were only a question of Robinson being a sinner, then of course
>>>> the
>>>> sacraments would be valid, as they are with us. But it's much more than
>>>> that. It is a question of intent. Should we really give the Episcopal
>>>> Church
>>>> of Griswold and Robinson such a benefit of the doubt, that we affirm
>>>> that
>>>> they (i.e. Griswold and Robinson in particular) intend to perpetuate
>>>> the
>>>> (One Holy Catholic and Apostolic) Faith in their ordinations? I don't
>>>> think
>>>> they do. Given their commitments and beliefs, it is fundamentally a
>>>> different religion. They may use an appropriate form, but they do not
>>>> intend
>>>> to perpetuate the Catholic Faith--which makes them more akin to
>>>> Mormons--who
>>>> use approprite words in Baptism, but whose sacraments the Church has
>>>> consistently rejected due to invalid intent.
>>>>
>>>> To put it another way, to insist that their sacraments are valid, is to
>>>> insist that the religion they believe and intend to perpetuate is
>>>> Apostolic
>>>> Christianity.
>>>>
>>>> Let's not do that.
>>>>
>>>> GCM+
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
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>>>>
>>>
>>>
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>>
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>
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