In a message dated 9/24/05 5:17:41 PM, gdvw@... writes:


> GSM: Really sorry to hear that because if you really believe that then
> everyone's ordination is potentially invalid back to day 1.How about
> Augustine of Hippo? were his orders invalid too? He had quite a 'track
> record' as I recall. Blessings. GDVW+
> 

Dear Fr. Wiebe:
That's a red herring. We cannot argue the truthfulness of a matter just 
because we don't like what we think the consequences for us or others may be. Now I 
may be wrong and he may be a priest, but I think there is reason to question 
the validity of that action. Blessed Augustine's ordination and consecration 
was fundamentally different from VJR. (1) He was a repentant sinner who was not 
affirming his former way of life. (2) His conscrators were not consecrating 
him as he continued intentionally and publically in a sinful way of life. (3) 
His consecrators made no public statement that Augustine was being consecrated 
knowing he was continuing unrepentant in sin. (4) Finally his consecrators 
made no public or private statement that they realized since he was continuing in 
sin it was understood that the action they were about to take would split the 
Church, but they were going to do it anyway. These are only a few of the 
obvious material differences between the two. I would say the same about John 
Spong. He, sadly, really is a bishop. The same is true for others who deny the 
faith but were once consecrated. They remain really ordained or consecrated. 
However they only act with validity when they intend to do what the church intends 
and in the case of an apostate like Spong that is incredible. Still his conser
ation is materially different from VJR. Why any of us would rush to judgement 
on the matter of this consecration is odd to me. We should always be careful 
not to break the classical canons of logic like appealing to fearful 
consequences. This always keeps us from attending to the issues with intelligence, 
reason, responsibility and love. 
gms+

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