Thank you, Brian.

I have a copy of Bede in front of me, and was preparing a response, but you did it much better!

What do we do with Abbesses, indeed.  Which was the point of my question.

Frank


  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: B. Foos<mailto:bfoos@...> 
  To: faithandlife@...<mailto:faithandlife@...> 
  Sent: Thursday, November 24, 2005 2:31 PM
  Subject: Re: Re: [FaithandLife] Covenant Union & WO


  Mark,

  I agree with your overview, but do you make too little of the 
  differences?  It seems to me that there are some striking differences 
  in the Irish and Irish influenced Churches (i.e. Scotland, parts of 
  Northumbria) and the Continental Church.  You, of course, mention 
  most of them.  And, I agree, it is terribly difficult to pull out the 
  authentic Church from the actual sources we have, not to mention the 
  ridiculous Celtic Craze that has gone on in the last 20 years or so.

  Yet, I just cannot help but see quite a striking difference in the 
  general tone of the Celtic Church (i.e. Celtic peoples in the British 
  isles) in the centuries preceding and following Whitby.  Bede, for 
  being a Saxon, is quite sympathetic in his portrayal.  Of course, 
  Northumbria is an interesting cross-cultural place in terms of 
  Christianity.  First evangelized from the south (Canterbury) by St. 
  Paulinus and later re-evangelized by St. Aidan from Iona, I would 
  imagine Bede could have some rather strong Celtic influence. 
  However, Jarrow seems to have been much more influenced by Roman 
  traditions, even earlier than Bede's time, if I'm not mistaken.  Go 
  south, however, and you run into a Church called Escomb Church in a 
  tiny village south of Durham.  That Church was built right around the 
  time of Whitby.  It takes the traditional Celtic shape and had a 
  contingent of two Celtic monks and their families hanging around 
  until the time of Bill the Conqueror.  Interesting bit of Celtic 
  influence that survives quite a long time.  By the way, the Church is 
  amazing--all original and stone built (new ceiling), it is well worth 
  a visit if you're in the area.  The Victorians built a new Church up 
  the street, but after 50 years, it started leaking and falling apart, 
  so they returned to the original in town.

  Irish Monasticism seems to be quite different from the rest of the 
  West and from the East in a few respects.  For one, it seems to be 
  driven by necessity, not by a desire to flee the cities focus on an 
  ascetic, spiritual life.  There were no cities in the British Isles. 
  Also, most of the monasticism seemed to be quite driven by service to 
  the communities surrounding the abbeys and to mission.  The hermits 
  life seemed to be for preparation rather than perpetuity.

  It seems to me that we have quite an interesting, and perhaps fairly 
  unique gift and example of Christianity in the Church of the Celts in 
  the British Isles.  Too much has been made of it in very many 
  different directions, but it would seem a great loss to make too 
  little of it, no?

  And what do we do with the Abbesses sitting in synod wearing Miters?

  Brian+



  >Frank,
  >
  >Celtic Christianity is one of those areas where, because we know so 
  >little, so much ends up being made of it, very little of which is 
  >valuable.  The very term "Celtic Christianity" is a misnomer, as 
  >British Christianity seems to have been different than Irish 
  >Christianity. 
  >
  >Once the rhetoric of the Reformation was sidelined, serious 
  >historical research has shown that both the Irish and the 
  >Anglo-Saxon Churches were very faithful to Holy Mother Rome.  Both 
  >the Welsh and the Irish repeatedly called synods to condemn 
  >Pelagianism at the prompting of Rome.  And Irish missionaries to 
  >Merovingian France were far more loyal to the Papacy than their 
  >Gallic counterparts.  The request to the Gallic Church or the Pope 
  >to send Germanus of Auxerre to deal with Pelagianism in Britain 
  >shows that as late as 450 AD the British Church still had strong 
  >contacts with the continent.  With Augustine's arrival in 597 AD, 
  >that leaves only a hundred and fifty years for the British Church to 
  >develop its own characteristics; in that day an age, not much time 
  >at all, though the collapse of urban culture would have affected a 
  >still very urban Christianity dramatically.  Unfortunately, Gildas, 
  >writing sometime in the middle of the 6th century, doesn't tell us 
  >much about any peculiarly British ways of doing church.
  >
  >Certainly, there was a different custom among the British and Irish 
  >Churches to that of Rome and Gaul.  The Easter controversy is well 
  >known.  Bede also speaks of the the Augustinian bishops riding 
  >horses like patricians while the bishops of the north (influenced by 
  >Celtic Christianity) alwats walked.  This speaks to the major 
  >cultural difference: the Roman clergy were drawn from the patrician 
  >class while British and Irish tended to be more in line with the 
  >Desert Fathers, holding to a severe and austere discipline.
  >
  >And the monasticism was quite different, though both tended to be 
  >governed by dynastic abbots (nephews and cousins inheriting the 
  >title).  Despite what some have tried to prove, there is no serious 
  >evidence for women clergy among the British or Celtic Churches. 
  >That confusion apparently arises from the idiosyncratic practice 
  >among the Irish of allowing lay people of particular holiness to 
  >hear confessions and absolve the penitent. Both holy men and women 
  >could do this.  In fact, my understanding is that the practice of 
  >personal confession was a gift of the Irish to the wider Church 
  >(that had practiced communal confession and penitence).
  >
  >Having said all that, one must remember that there are practically 
  >no documents dealing with the British or Celtic Churches that 
  >predate the 9th-century, a good 200-300 years post-Whitby.  Much 
  >that we do have is hagiographic or charters and grants, none of 
  >which tells us much about the nature of the church.  Almost all the 
  >poetry, hymns, and prayers weren't written down until the 11th and 
  >12th centuries.  Teasing out of them what is authentically 5th-7th 
  >century is extremely difficult.
  >
  >More than you probably wanted to know!
  >
  >Mark+
  >
  >
  >
  >
  >
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