Brothers+ In preparing for Advent and Christmas messages, I came across some old correspondence on a discussion list regarding Isaiah 7:14 and the Messianic Prophecies. This particular exchange reminded me of debates I heard nearly a half-century ago in regard to Isaiah 7:14. The bit below is not a conservative-liberal or a Bible-believer versus agnostic-atheist debate. Below is the relatively recent correspondence between two Bible believing very conservative Christians. Both believe the Incarnation and the Virgin birth, but differ in regard to translating Isaiah 7:14. George has his theology down and knows what Isaiah 7:14 means. Wayne believes as George does, but is wrestling with his integrity as a translator. Both try hard to be nice. I suspect that among our parishoners there are many who have no clear idea of what is involved and have no idea of what they are missing, which I will explore in another post. Charles+ -------------------------------------------------------------- From "Wayne " Date : 19 Dec >Wayne wrote - some time ago -> >I bought the new translation, "The >Message, of the Prophets in the Hebrew Bible." The translator, Eugene >Peterson, finesses the issues in Isaiah 7:14 rather well, I think: "A >girl who is presently a virgin will get pregnant. She'll bear a son and name him lmmanuel ["God-With-Us"]." ---------------------------------------------------------------> George wrote: >Wayne, I understand that the authors of Isaiah 7:14 intended >compenatration, called by some "dual fulfillment." ----------------------------------- Wayne Yes, I know this position. I think it was basically what I was taught growing up in church and at Bible school, that is, if I was even taught that there was any possibility other than that Isaiah was prophecying only about the virgin birth of the messiah. Your understanding is a fair one, but it is, IMO, not one which we should translate for Isa. 7:14, and I know you haven't stated that. I think it is fair enough to translation the verse so that it can allow for dual fulfillment, but I think Isaiah himself was only prophecying about a boy to be born who would be a sign to King Ahaz. I also believe that the HS chose to modify that original authorial intent in Matt. 1:23 to make the OT passage christological, and the HS had that right. Many other NT quotes from the Hebrew Bible have the same christological customization. That still doesn't change how we need to translate the OT passage, IMO. I have come to believe that each passage in the Bible needs to be translated according to original authorial intent. Translating OT passages on the basis of NT interpretation goes beyond the scope of translation, IMO, into the the sphere of application. ------------------------------------ George > Peterson's translation does not deal with the distant aspect of the >prophecy but makes it sound like Isaiah and the Holy Spirit were speaking >only of Mahershalahashbaz. ------------------------------------ Wayne This is my current understanding of Isa. 7:14 within its context. As a translator, I cannot look forward in time several hundred years and translate from that POV. (But I should add that if I see sufficient evidence within the Isaiah context that Isaiah was likely giving a dual prophecy, I'd definitely want to buy that interpretation. I just don't want to be guided by my personal theology, rather than "the facts" of the OT passage, which I must limit myself to as a translation.) -------------------------------------- George > The expression "presently a virgin" eliminates Mary the Mother of Jesus >because she was not yet born at the time of Isaiah's writing. Actually, >I think Peterson does finesse the issue quite well in that he uses both >words suggested by differing exegetes. I think he finesses it better than >he translates it, I'm afraid! --------------------------------------- Wayne It could be. I suspect he was trying to avoid the problems that the RSV and other translations have faced when they translated almah only as 'young woman.' I'm not sure NavPres, a conservative publisher, would have accepted that as the primary translation. It's tough translating for English speakers! Have a good week, George, Wayne --------------------------------------------------------------------- _________________________________________________________________ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963