Re: No Way APA site. Every organization has its kooks and extremists. We in the REC have the "Presbyterians with a Prayer Book" crowd, but I wager the APA has some of its own wing nuts in the form of what I call "Missal fundamentalists" who practice an equally extremist, if totally opposite version of Anglicanism. In both cases the motivations are excessive fear and anger which defies logic. It's really too bad that the 5-10% or so of the people on the lunatic fringes of our respective jurisdictions can cause so much grief for the 80-90% who are charitable in their differences and who recognize that we are all supposed to be brothers and sisters in Christ. The fact is that the dynamic tension between the Reformed and Catholic aspects of the Anglican Way provide for a church that is faithful to an approach which is both sacramental and evangelical. In short we can each learn something from the other, and we need each other to be whole. I sometimes think we might all be better off if our (the REC's) quasi-Prsbyterians and the APA's crypto-Romans just went on to their respective destinations and left the rest of us in peace. I for one, invite them to make themselves and the rest of us happy by voting with their feet. They will be missed like a toothache. (Just my personal opinion as a long-time veteran of the churchmanship wars.) (The Rev'd Canon) James T. Payne St. Thomas of Canterbury (REC) Houston, Texas www.stochouston.org faithandlife-digest-help@... wrote: >faithandlife Digest 29 Jan 2006 13:58:14 -0000 Issue 944 > >Topics (messages 11263 through 11289): > >Re: Disturbing Site > 11263 by: The Rev. Fr. Johann W. Vanderbijl III > 11264 by: Michael Ward > 11265 by: Derrick L. Hassert > 11270 by: Knox Duncan > >blog site > 11266 by: JEFFREY STEEL > 11267 by: JEFFREY STEEL > 11268 by: Michael Ward > 11269 by: JEFFREY STEEL > 11271 by: Michael Ward > >Re: RSVP:Medjugorje- a rebuttal > 11272 by: GMSpencer.aol.com > >Invocation of the Saints > 11273 by: John S. Longcamp > 11278 by: Frank Warren > 11279 by: GMSpencer.aol.com > 11280 by: Frank Warren > 11281 by: GMSpencer.aol.com > 11283 by: GMSpencer.aol.com > >The Dangers of Unbalancing Anglicanism > 11274 by: Father Chandler Holder Jones > 11275 by: prolife.juno.com > 11276 by: JEFFREY STEEL > 11277 by: Michael Ward > 11282 by: JEFFREY STEEL > >Griffith Thomas on Marian (and other) Intercessions > 11284 by: The Rev. Charles A. Collins, Jr., S.B.R. > 11285 by: GMSpencer.aol.com > 11287 by: The Rev. Charles A. Collins, Jr., S.B.R. > >Re: Edward Pusey on Marian (and other) Intercessions > 11286 by: Derrick L. Hassert > 11288 by: The Rev. Charles A. Collins, Jr., S.B.R. > 11289 by: Mark & Mary Woolsey > >Administrivia: > >To subscribe to the digest, e-mail: > <faithandlife-digest-subscribe@...> > >To unsubscribe from the digest, e-mail: > <faithandlife-digest-unsubscribe@...> > >To post to the list, e-mail: > <faithandlife@...> > > >---------------------------------------------------------------------- >Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 12:14:38 -0500 >To: <faithandlife@...> >From: "The Rev. Fr. Johann W. Vanderbijl III" <cranmer@...> >Subject: Re: Disturbing Site >Message-ID: <000601c62365$276ef510$6101a8c0@Johann> > >Do you all know about this site? > >http://www.no-way-apa.net/ > >Why are people doing this sort of thing? Do they really think this is even >vaguely Christian? What about the Matthew 18 principle and many other >commands to deal with differences privately and in a Christian manner? > >J.+ > >The Rev. Fr. Johann W. Vanderbijl III, Rector >The Anglican Church of St. George the Martyr, R.E. >427 Batesville Road >Simpsonville, SC 29681 >cranmer@... >www.stgeorge-re.org > >------------------------------ > >Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 12:53:38 -0500 >To: <faithandlife@...> >From: "Michael Ward" <mward@...> >Subject: RE: [FaithandLife] Re: Disturbing Site >Message-ID: <C952E09E1C13F74FA9B0ACEF856928D012E0F5@...> > >That's something, isn't it. But then, since whomever it is that put the >site up has chosen not to put his name on it, one must wonder about his = >-- >or quite possibly her -- credibility. Sort of the Hamas of Christendom. > >MLW+ > >-----Original Message----- >From: The Rev. Fr. Johann W. Vanderbijl III = >[mailto:cranmer@...]=20 >Sent: Friday, January 27, 2006 12:15 PM >To: faithandlife@... >Subject: [FaithandLife] Re: Disturbing Site > >Do you all know about this site? > >http://www.no-way-apa.net/ > >Why are people doing this sort of thing? Do they really think this is = >even=20 >vaguely Christian? What about the Matthew 18 principle and many other=20 >commands to deal with differences privately and in a Christian manner? > >J.+ > >The Rev. Fr. Johann W. Vanderbijl III, Rector >The Anglican Church of St. George the Martyr, R.E. >427 Batesville Road >Simpsonville, SC 29681 >cranmer@... >www.stgeorge-re.org=20 > >-- >To unsubscribe, send ANY message to: = >faithandlife-unsubscribe@... > >------------------------------ > >Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 09:58:20 -0800 (PST) >To: faithandlife@... >From: "Derrick L. Hassert" <dlhassert@...> >Subject: RE: [FaithandLife] Re: Disturbing Site >Message-ID: <20060127175821.84637.qmail@...> > >--0-1106044210-1138384700=:83498 >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > >It seems somewhat obvious that this individual doesn't want to be Anglican (low church or otherwise). I'm not sure he'd even claim the name for himself. We're not Presbyterians with Prayer Books, nor are we 19th century Roman Catholics without the Pope. We are "Protestant and Reformed according to the principles of the ancient Catholic Church" (Bp. Cosin), teaching only that which can be proved from Holy Scripture or that which the ancient catholic fathers and doctors could prove from the same. If we cease to follow these admonitions we cease to be Anglicans (we can either drop off the low end in our deletions from essentials of the Faith or fall off the high end and transform ourselves into 19th century Tridentine Roman Catholics). > > DH > >Michael Ward <mward@...> wrote: > That's something, isn't it. But then, since whomever it is that put the >site up has chosen not to put his name on it, one must wonder about his -- >or quite possibly her -- credibility. Sort of the Hamas of Christendom. > >MLW+ > >-----Original Message----- >From: The Rev. Fr. Johann W. Vanderbijl III [mailto:cranmer@...] >Sent: Friday, January 27, 2006 12:15 PM >To: faithandlife@... >Subject: [FaithandLife] Re: Disturbing Site > >Do you all know about this site? > >http://www.no-way-apa.net/ > >Why are people doing this sort of thing? Do they really think this is even >vaguely Christian? What about the Matthew 18 principle and many other >commands to deal with differences privately and in a Christian manner? > >J.+ > >The Rev. Fr. Johann W. Vanderbijl III, Rector >The Anglican Church of St. George the Martyr, R.E. >427 Batesville Road >Simpsonville, SC 29681 >cranmer@... >www.stgeorge-re.org > >-- >To unsubscribe, send ANY message to: faithandlife-unsubscribe@... > >-- >To unsubscribe, send ANY message to: faithandlife-unsubscribe@... > > > > >--------------------------------- > Yahoo! Autos. Looking for a sweet ride? Get pricing, reviews, & more on new and used cars. >-- >To unsubscribe, send ANY message to: faithandlife-unsubscribe@... > >------------------------------ > >Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 12:36:39 -0600 >To: <faithandlife@...> >From: "Knox Duncan" <knoxduncan@...> >Subject: Re: [FaithandLife] Re: Disturbing Site >Message-ID: <005b01c62370$9e1121b0$8647fd04@jkd> > >Excellent summation, Derrick! Regards. KnoxDuncan@... > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Derrick L. Hassert" <dlhassert@...> >To: <faithandlife@...> >Sent: Friday, January 27, 2006 11:58 AM >Subject: RE: [FaithandLife] Re: Disturbing Site > > > >>It seems somewhat obvious that this individual doesn't want to be Anglican >>(low church or otherwise). I'm not sure he'd even claim the name for >>himself. We're not Presbyterians with Prayer Books, nor are we 19th >>century Roman Catholics without the Pope. We are "Protestant and Reformed >>according to the principles of the ancient Catholic Church" (Bp. Cosin), >>teaching only that which can be proved from Holy Scripture or that which >>the ancient catholic fathers and doctors could prove from the same. If we >>cease to follow these admonitions we cease to be Anglicans (we can either >>drop off the low end in our deletions from essentials of the Faith or fall >>off the high end and transform ourselves into 19th century Tridentine >>Roman Catholics). >> >> DH >> >>Michael Ward <mward@...> wrote: >> That's something, isn't it. But then, since whomever it is that put the >>site up has chosen not to put his name on it, one must wonder about his -- >>or quite possibly her -- credibility. Sort of the Hamas of Christendom. >> >>MLW+ >> >>-----Original Message----- >>From: The Rev. Fr. Johann W. Vanderbijl III [mailto:cranmer@...] >>Sent: Friday, January 27, 2006 12:15 PM >>To: faithandlife@... >>Subject: [FaithandLife] Re: Disturbing Site >> >>Do you all know about this site? >> >>http://www.no-way-apa.net/ >> >> >> > > >------------------------------ > >Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 18:06:19 -0000 >To: <faithandlife@...> >From: "JEFFREY STEEL" <jeffrey.steel1@...> >Subject: blog site >Message-ID: <003f01c6236c$6051c6d0$05000100@Anglican> > >Would love to your thoughts on my new blog format. > >js >----- Original Message ----- >From: "The Rev. Fr. Johann W. Vanderbijl III" <cranmer@...> >To: <faithandlife@...> >Sent: Friday, January 27, 2006 5:14 PM >Subject: [FaithandLife] Re: Disturbing Site > > > >>Do you all know about this site? >> >>http://www.no-way-apa.net/ >> >>Why are people doing this sort of thing? Do they really think this is >>even vaguely Christian? What about the Matthew 18 principle and many >>other commands to deal with differences privately and in a Christian >>manner? >> >>J.+ >> >>The Rev. Fr. Johann W. Vanderbijl III, Rector >>The Anglican Church of St. George the Martyr, R.E. >>427 Batesville Road >>Simpsonville, SC 29681 >>cranmer@... >>www.stgeorge-re.org >> >> >>-- >>To unsubscribe, send ANY message to: >>faithandlife-unsubscribe@... >> >> >> >> > >------------------------------ > >Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 18:13:49 -0000 >To: <faithandlife@...> >From: "JEFFREY STEEL" <jeffrey.steel1@...> >Subject: Re: [FaithandLife] blog site >Message-ID: <004401c6236d$6c854ac0$05000100@Anglican> > >www.meam-commemorationem.blogspot.com > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "JEFFREY STEEL" <jeffrey.steel1@...> >To: <faithandlife@...> >Sent: Friday, January 27, 2006 6:06 PM >Subject: [FaithandLife] blog site > > > >>Would love to your thoughts on my new blog format. >> >>js >>----- Original Message ----- >>From: "The Rev. Fr. Johann W. Vanderbijl III" <cranmer@...> >>To: <faithandlife@...> >>Sent: Friday, January 27, 2006 5:14 PM >>Subject: [FaithandLife] Re: Disturbing Site >> >> >> >> >>>Do you all know about this site? >>> >>>http://www.no-way-apa.net/ >>> >>>Why are people doing this sort of thing? Do they really think this is >>>even vaguely Christian? What about the Matthew 18 principle and many >>>other commands to deal with differences privately and in a Christian >>>manner? >>> >>>J.+ >>> >>>The Rev. Fr. Johann W. Vanderbijl III, Rector >>>The Anglican Church of St. George the Martyr, R.E. >>>427 Batesville Road >>>Simpsonville, SC 29681 >>>cranmer@... >>>www.stgeorge-re.org >>> >>> >>>-- >>>To unsubscribe, send ANY message to: >>>faithandlife-unsubscribe@... >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >>-- >>To unsubscribe, send ANY message to: >>faithandlife-unsubscribe@... >> >> >> >> > >------------------------------ > >Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 13:24:00 -0500 >To: <faithandlife@...> >From: "Michael Ward" <mward@...> >Subject: RE: [FaithandLife] blog site >Message-ID: <C952E09E1C13F74FA9B0ACEF856928D012E0F7@...> > >Jeffrey: > >I like it and the links are extensive (and great!). But is there any = >reason >the 1928 BCP isn't included with the liturgical links? > >MLW+ > >-----Original Message----- >From: JEFFREY STEEL [mailto:jeffrey.steel1@...]=20 >Sent: Friday, January 27, 2006 1:14 PM >To: faithandlife@... >Subject: Re: [FaithandLife] blog site > >www.meam-commemorationem.blogspot.com > >----- Original Message -----=20 >From: "JEFFREY STEEL" <jeffrey.steel1@...> >To: <faithandlife@...> >Sent: Friday, January 27, 2006 6:06 PM >Subject: [FaithandLife] blog site > > > >>Would love to your thoughts on my new blog format. >> >>js >>----- Original Message -----=20 >>From: "The Rev. Fr. Johann W. Vanderbijl III" <cranmer@...> >>To: <faithandlife@...> >>Sent: Friday, January 27, 2006 5:14 PM >>Subject: [FaithandLife] Re: Disturbing Site >> >> >> >> >>>Do you all know about this site? >>> >>>http://www.no-way-apa.net/ >>> >>>Why are people doing this sort of thing? Do they really think this = >>> >>> >is=20 > > >>>even vaguely Christian? What about the Matthew 18 principle and many = >>> >>> > > > >>>other commands to deal with differences privately and in a Christian=20 >>>manner? >>> >>>J.+ >>> >>>The Rev. Fr. Johann W. Vanderbijl III, Rector >>>The Anglican Church of St. George the Martyr, R.E. >>>427 Batesville Road >>>Simpsonville, SC 29681 >>>cranmer@... >>>www.stgeorge-re.org >>> >>> >>>-- >>>To unsubscribe, send ANY message to:=20 >>>faithandlife-unsubscribe@... >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >>-- >>To unsubscribe, send ANY message to:=20 >>faithandlife-unsubscribe@... >> >>=20 >> >> > >-- >To unsubscribe, send ANY message to: = >faithandlife-unsubscribe@... > >------------------------------ > >Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 18:26:41 -0000 >To: <faithandlife@...> >From: "JEFFREY STEEL" <jeffrey.steel1@...> >Subject: Re: [FaithandLife] blog site >Message-ID: <000a01c6236f$383d20b0$05000100@Anglican> > >ah, i missed it. sorry about that! i will remedy that. > >js >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Michael Ward" <mward@...> >To: <faithandlife@...> >Sent: Friday, January 27, 2006 6:24 PM >Subject: RE: [FaithandLife] blog site > >Jeffrey: > >I like it and the links are extensive (and great!). But is there any reason >the 1928 BCP isn't included with the liturgical links? > >MLW+ > >-----Original Message----- >From: JEFFREY STEEL [mailto:jeffrey.steel1@...] >Sent: Friday, January 27, 2006 1:14 PM >To: faithandlife@... >Subject: Re: [FaithandLife] blog site > >www.meam-commemorationem.blogspot.com > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "JEFFREY STEEL" <jeffrey.steel1@...> >To: <faithandlife@...> >Sent: Friday, January 27, 2006 6:06 PM >Subject: [FaithandLife] blog site > > > >>Would love to your thoughts on my new blog format. >> >>js >>----- Original Message ----- >>From: "The Rev. Fr. Johann W. Vanderbijl III" <cranmer@...> >>To: <faithandlife@...> >>Sent: Friday, January 27, 2006 5:14 PM >>Subject: [FaithandLife] Re: Disturbing Site >> >> >> >> >>>Do you all know about this site? >>> >>>http://www.no-way-apa.net/ >>> >>>Why are people doing this sort of thing? Do they really think this is >>>even vaguely Christian? What about the Matthew 18 principle and many >>>other commands to deal with differences privately and in a Christian >>>manner? >>> >>>J.+ >>> >>>The Rev. Fr. Johann W. Vanderbijl III, Rector >>>The Anglican Church of St. George the Martyr, R.E. >>>427 Batesville Road >>>Simpsonville, SC 29681 >>>cranmer@... >>>www.stgeorge-re.org >>> >>> >>>-- >>>To unsubscribe, send ANY message to: >>>faithandlife-unsubscribe@... >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >>-- >>To unsubscribe, send ANY message to: >>faithandlife-unsubscribe@... >> >> >> >> > >-- >To unsubscribe, send ANY message to: faithandlife-unsubscribe@... > >-- >To unsubscribe, send ANY message to: faithandlife-unsubscribe@... > >------------------------------ > >Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 14:33:45 -0500 >To: <faithandlife@...> >From: "Michael Ward" <mward@...> >Subject: RE: [FaithandLife] blog site >Message-ID: <C952E09E1C13F74FA9B0ACEF856928D012E0FC@...> > >I appreciate the link to the 1570 Roman Mass. Is there anything = >available >that shows the pre-Tridentine Mass? > >MLW+ > >-----Original Message----- >From: JEFFREY STEEL [mailto:jeffrey.steel1@...]=20 >Sent: Friday, January 27, 2006 1:27 PM >To: faithandlife@... >Subject: Re: [FaithandLife] blog site > >ah, i missed it. sorry about that! i will remedy that. > >js >----- Original Message -----=20 >From: "Michael Ward" <mward@...> >To: <faithandlife@...> >Sent: Friday, January 27, 2006 6:24 PM >Subject: RE: [FaithandLife] blog site > >Jeffrey: > >I like it and the links are extensive (and great!). But is there any = >reason >the 1928 BCP isn't included with the liturgical links? > >MLW+ > >-----Original Message----- >From: JEFFREY STEEL [mailto:jeffrey.steel1@...] >Sent: Friday, January 27, 2006 1:14 PM >To: faithandlife@... >Subject: Re: [FaithandLife] blog site > >www.meam-commemorationem.blogspot.com > >----- Original Message -----=20 >From: "JEFFREY STEEL" <jeffrey.steel1@...> >To: <faithandlife@...> >Sent: Friday, January 27, 2006 6:06 PM >Subject: [FaithandLife] blog site > > > >>Would love to your thoughts on my new blog format. >> >>js >>----- Original Message -----=20 >>From: "The Rev. Fr. Johann W. Vanderbijl III" <cranmer@...> >>To: <faithandlife@...> >>Sent: Friday, January 27, 2006 5:14 PM >>Subject: [FaithandLife] Re: Disturbing Site >> >> >> >> >>>Do you all know about this site? >>> >>>http://www.no-way-apa.net/ >>> >>>Why are people doing this sort of thing? Do they really think this = >>> >>> >is > > >>>even vaguely Christian? What about the Matthew 18 principle and many >>>other commands to deal with differences privately and in a Christian >>>manner? >>> >>>J.+ >>> >>>The Rev. Fr. Johann W. Vanderbijl III, Rector >>>The Anglican Church of St. George the Martyr, R.E. >>>427 Batesville Road >>>Simpsonville, SC 29681 >>>cranmer@... >>>www.stgeorge-re.org >>> >>> >>>-- >>>To unsubscribe, send ANY message to: >>>faithandlife-unsubscribe@... >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >>-- >>To unsubscribe, send ANY message to: >>faithandlife-unsubscribe@... >> >> >> >> > >-- >To unsubscribe, send ANY message to: = >faithandlife-unsubscribe@... > >-- >To unsubscribe, send ANY message to: = >faithandlife-unsubscribe@... > >-- >To unsubscribe, send ANY message to: = >faithandlife-unsubscribe@... > >------------------------------ > >Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 16:53:47 EST >To: faithandlife@... >From: GMSpencer@... >Subject: Re: [FaithandLife] RSVP:Medjugorje- a rebuttal >Message-ID: <5b.793b3f5b.310bf06b@...> > >--part1_5b.793b3f5b.310bf06b_boundary >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > >In a message dated 1/26/06 8:41:31 PM, gdvw@... writes: > > > >>but who can deny that God's >>Mother can do what she will where she will and how she will. >> >> >> > >True, as long as we keep in mind her own fiat: "Let it be unto me according >to thy word." That's pretty close to "not my will, but thine be done." Also >pretty close to the Baptist: "he must increase, I must decrease." >gms+ > >-- >To unsubscribe, send ANY message to: faithandlife-unsubscribe@... > >------------------------------ > >Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 20:03:14 -0700 >To: <faithandlife@...> >From: "John S. Longcamp" <jlongcamp@...> >Subject: Invocation of the Saints >Message-ID: <02a201c623b7$62608d80$849fe404@John> > >------=_NextPart_000_029F_01C6237C.B4FDDA10 >Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1" >Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > >Brothers+ > >Thank you for your overwhelming response to my question (Can the saints = >"hear" us when we ask them to intercede for us? And I emphasized that I = >had no problem with the concept of their praying for us, just whether we = >can actually ask them. I also asked for what indication we have been = >given that they can "hear" our request.) > >Although none of you could give a definite answer as to "what indication = >we have been given that they can "hear" our request", you were most = >helpful. In particular I appreciate Mark+'s answer:=20 > >"I look at it this way. I don't know for certain that my prayers are = >heard by the saints or even if they want particularly to hear me blither = >on, wake them from their heavenly rest, and ruin their heavenly study of = >Anglicanism. But as they are my company I feel rather rude ignoring = >them...after all, how can they and I grow deeper in our shared love of = >Christ without even a passing nod?" That is honest and does not offend = >Scripture or Tradition, nor Reason, for that matter. Thanks! > >Charles+, as usual, your comments are solid, sensible, and credible. = >While you did not offer "proof", you help a lot when you write: "The = >writer of Hebrews says we are surrounded by the "great cloud of martyrs = >(witnesses) as if in an arena. I may be pressing too hard here, but it = >seems to me the witnesses are interested in those who are still running = >the race. Since God ". . .is not God of the dead, but of the living, = >for all live to him" (Luke 20:38) and since the prayers of the saints = >are pictured in Revelation 5 as being presented eternally to God (Rev = >5:8) I wonder if those prayers aren't for those still in the race on = >earth since the church triumphant is pictured in Revelation as already = >joining the angels and archangels in worship of God. > >"In Revelation 6 the souls under the altar cry out for vindication. It = >seems to me that the church under persecution had the sense that the = >earthly altar and the heavenly altar were joined, and that the saints = >who had joined the church triumphant were aware of the prayers coming up = >from the earthly altar." I hear you saying that whether or not the = >saints her our specific requests for their intervention, they are aware = >of our needs and are interceding. That is great with me. > >Now, to answer your questions to me" Charles+ and Mike+, the weather = >here is fine! My slowness in responding to all of your kind responses = >is in part due to the great sunny day, temp in the 20s, that made me go = >skiing at Breckenridge. (Also, I receive FaithandLife in the Digest = >form.) The sun at 9,000+ feet (+ here means "plus" and does not indicate = >Holy Orders) is so warm that I very comfortably ate lunch outdoors = >without a coat. We have had abundant snow this year. While the media = >in Cincinnati often referred to snow as White Death, here it is called = >White Gold! Not only does our great snowfall look beautiful and make = >for great skiing, it will provide much needed water this summer, = >benefiting not only us locals and the Front Range in Colorado, but also = >all living along the Colorado River. > >John+ >(Longcamp, Dillon, CO) >-- >To unsubscribe, send ANY message to: faithandlife-unsubscribe@... > >------------------------------ > >Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2006 18:53:41 -0500 >To: <faithandlife@...> >From: "Frank Warren" <warren-sa@...> >Subject: Re: [FaithandLife] Invocation of the Saints >Message-ID: <BAY103-DAV3C127EC82F651D168E61CE7170@...> > >------=_NextPart_000_0528_01C6243C.282E79D0 >Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1" >Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > >Breckenridge is a grand place to be!! > >Frank > ----- Original Message -----=20 > From: John S. Longcamp<mailto:jlongcamp@...>=20 > To: faithandlife@...<mailto:faithandlife@...>=20 > Sent: Friday, January 27, 2006 10:03 PM > Subject: [FaithandLife] Invocation of the Saints > > Brothers+ > > Thank you for your overwhelming response to my question (Can the = >saints "hear" us when we ask them to intercede for us? And I emphasized = >that I had no problem with the concept of their praying for us, just = >whether we can actually ask them. I also asked for what indication we = >have been given that they can "hear" our request.) > > Although none of you could give a definite answer as to "what = >indication we have been given that they can "hear" our request", you = >were most helpful. In particular I appreciate Mark+'s answer:=20 > > "I look at it this way. I don't know for certain that my prayers are = >heard by the saints or even if they want particularly to hear me blither = >on, wake them from their heavenly rest, and ruin their heavenly study of = >Anglicanism. But as they are my company I feel rather rude ignoring = >them...after all, how can they and I grow deeper in our shared love of = >Christ without even a passing nod?" That is honest and does not offend = >Scripture or Tradition, nor Reason, for that matter. Thanks! > > Charles+, as usual, your comments are solid, sensible, and credible. = >While you did not offer "proof", you help a lot when you write: "The = >writer of Hebrews says we are surrounded by the "great cloud of martyrs = >(witnesses) as if in an arena. I may be pressing too hard here, but it = >seems to me the witnesses are interested in those who are still running = >the race. Since God ". . .is not God of the dead, but of the living, = >for all live to him" (Luke 20:38) and since the prayers of the saints = >are pictured in Revelation 5 as being presented eternally to God (Rev = >5:8) I wonder if those prayers aren't for those still in the race on = >earth since the church triumphant is pictured in Revelation as already = >joining the angels and archangels in worship of God. > > "In Revelation 6 the souls under the altar cry out for vindication. = >It seems to me that the church under persecution had the sense that the = >earthly altar and the heavenly altar were joined, and that the saints = >who had joined the church triumphant were aware of the prayers coming up = >from the earthly altar." I hear you saying that whether or not the = >saints her our specific requests for their intervention, they are aware = >of our needs and are interceding. That is great with me. > > Now, to answer your questions to me" Charles+ and Mike+, the weather = >here is fine! My slowness in responding to all of your kind responses = >is in part due to the great sunny day, temp in the 20s, that made me go = >skiing at Breckenridge. (Also, I receive FaithandLife in the Digest = >form.) The sun at 9,000+ feet (+ here means "plus" and does not indicate = >Holy Orders) is so warm that I very comfortably ate lunch outdoors = >without a coat. We have had abundant snow this year. While the media = >in Cincinnati often referred to snow as White Death, here it is called = >White Gold! Not only does our great snowfall look beautiful and make = >for great skiing, it will provide much needed water this summer, = >benefiting not only us locals and the Front Range in Colorado, but also = >all living along the Colorado River. > > John+ > (Longcamp, Dillon, CO) > -- > To unsubscribe, send ANY message to: = >faithandlife-unsubscribe@...<mailto:faithandlife-unsubscribe@as= >sociate.com> > >-- >To unsubscribe, send ANY message to: faithandlife-unsubscribe@... > >------------------------------ > >Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2006 18:55:19 EST >To: faithandlife@... >From: GMSpencer@... >Subject: Re: [FaithandLife] Invocation of the Saints >Message-ID: <1da.4bd6afc3.310d5e67@...> > >--part1_1da.4bd6afc3.310d5e67_boundary >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > >Hello Frank! How is everyone doing? >Glenn+ > >-- >To unsubscribe, send ANY message to: faithandlife-unsubscribe@... > >------------------------------ > >Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2006 19:04:58 -0500 >To: <faithandlife@...> >From: "Frank Warren" <warren-sa@...> >Subject: Re: [FaithandLife] Invocation of the Saints >Message-ID: <BAY103-DAV15D08597DE4803E275C011E7160@...> > >------=_NextPart_000_054F_01C6243D.BB909EA0 >Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1" >Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > >Thanks, Glenn. Everyone is doing fine! Holly improves day by day. = >(Oh, to be young again.)=20 > >Just got home from the NC Democratic Party meeting in Raleigh. What = >fun! > >Wish we could enjoy the brisk weather in Breckenridge, Colorado. = >Sandra and I were there a few years ago. =20 > >Also, I like the "Broad Church" definition from the Bishop of Gibraltar. = > Seems we have somewhat the same situation with APA and REC. > >How's things in Charlottesville? Marks+ take on invocation of the = >saints suits me fine. > >Frank > > ----- Original Message -----=20 > From: GMSpencer@...<mailto:GMSpencer@...>=20 > To: faithandlife@...<mailto:faithandlife@...>=20 > Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2006 6:55 PM > Subject: Re: [FaithandLife] Invocation of the Saints > > Hello Frank! How is everyone doing? > Glenn+ > > -- > To unsubscribe, send ANY message to: = >faithandlife-unsubscribe@...<mailto:faithandlife-unsubscribe@as= >sociate.com> > >-- >To unsubscribe, send ANY message to: faithandlife-unsubscribe@... > >------------------------------ > >Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2006 19:11:00 EST >To: faithandlife@... >From: GMSpencer@... >Subject: Re: [FaithandLife] Invocation of the Saints >Message-ID: <1ac.472f2d92.310d6214@...> > >--part1_1ac.472f2d92.310d6214_boundary >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > >In a message dated 1/28/06 7:05:01 PM, warren-sa@... writes: > > > >>(Oh, to be young again.) >> >> >> > >I know what you mean! >Glenn+ > >-- >To unsubscribe, send ANY message to: faithandlife-unsubscribe@... > >------------------------------ > >Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2006 19:26:27 EST >To: faithandlife@... >From: GMSpencer@... >Subject: Re: [FaithandLife] Invocation of the Saints >Message-ID: <263.4cb32f0.310d65b3@...> > >--part1_263.4cb32f0.310d65b3_boundary >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > >In a message dated 1/28/06 7:05:01 PM, warren-sa@... writes: > > > >>Marks+ take on invocation of the saints suits me fine. >> >> >> > >I agree. Take a look at hymn 397: > >Let saints on earth in concert sing >with those who work is done; >For all the servants of our King >In heaven and earth are one. > >One family we dwell in him, >One Church, above, beneath, >Though now divided by the stream, >The narrow stream of death. > >One army of the living God, >To his command we bow; >Part of the host have crossed the flood, >And part are crossing now. > >E'en now by faith we join our hands >With those that went before, >And greet the ever-living bands >On the eternal shore. > >Jesus, be thou our constant Guide; >then, when the word is giv'n, >Bid Jordon's narrow stream divide, >And bring us safe to heav'n. Amen. > >-- >To unsubscribe, send ANY message to: faithandlife-unsubscribe@... > >------------------------------ > >Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2006 15:51:29 -0500 >To: <jonesstbphl@...>, <Neopuritandoc@...>,"James Gordon Anderson" <gordon@...>,"gregory luther" <gregory_luther@...>, <jefflundy@...>,"Minshall Michael" <minshall_michael@...>,"Linda Burns" <Burnslk50@...>,"Mother Mary Joanna" <siglermother@...>,"Richard Baskwill" <rbaskwil@...>,<faithandlife@...> >From: "Father Chandler Holder Jones" <fatherchad@...> >Subject: The Dangers of Unbalancing Anglicanism >Message-ID: <0c5501c6244c$a0fb8370$f4e20843@Theotokos> > >------=_NextPart_000_0C4F_01C62422.B43E7D40 >Content-Type: multipart/alternative;boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0C50_01C62422.B43E7D40" > >------=_NextPart_001_0C50_01C62422.B43E7D40 >Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1" >Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > The dangers of unbalancing the 'broad church' of Anglicanism > Credo by Geoffrey Rowell > =20 > =20 > =20 > A FEW weeks ago a European diplomat asked me to explain what = >was meant by saying that the Church of England was "a broad church". As = >Anglican travellers know all too well, it is quite difficult to explain = >the identity of Anglicanism to many Catholic, Orthodox and Protestant = >Christians with no experience of the Church of England. It is, we say, = >both Catholic and reformed, a Church that experienced the Reformation of = >the 16th century, yet was careful to maintain the historic threefold = >apostolic ministry of bishop, priest and deacon; a Church that in its = >orders of morning and evening prayer (matins and evensong) creatively = >continued the pattern of the old monastic daily offices, but adapted for = >congregations; and which retained not only the sacraments, but = >sacramental signs like the ring in marriage and the sign of the cross in = >baptism.=20 > If there was concern for reformation, there was also concern = >for continuity, and it was the faith and order of the early centuries of = >the Church that were looked to as the benchmark of the English = >Reformation. Later medieval patterns of worship and practice were tested = >against the practice of the undivided church of east and west and early = >apologists for the Church of England emphasised that the English = >Reformation was a reformation by tradition.=20 > > =20 > =20 > As the genius of the Church of England grew and developed = >within the broad structure of its "reformed Catholicism" there was room = >for those with different theological emphases. So the Church of England = >accommodated groups with differing expressions of worship and different = >theologies, often co-existing happily, sometimes fighting battles to = >push at the boundaries.=20 > > There were those, like the great 19th-century theologian, F. = >D. Maurice, who were critical of belonging to a party in the Church = >because parties were partial and ended by being sectarian. Maurice saw = >the Church of England as needing the missionary zeal of the evangelical, = >the sacramental worship and sense of order of the Catholic, and the = >liberal concern for critical dialogue with contemporary culture. But all = >were held within the structure of the reformed catholicism of the Church = >of England, in a balance that has been the genius of Anglicanism.=20 > > At the present time there is a danger of unbalancing the = >Church of England, because of debates that touch profoundly the = >over-arching structure of the Church. A synod that still bears too many = >of the marks of a parliamentary system, and which is inclined to believe = >that the church is a democracy, is vulnerable to ecclesiastical party = >pressures and lobbying.=20 > > There is a need for the kind of consensus decision-making = >that is characteristic of both Jesuits and Quakers, and which has = >recently been adopted by the World Council of Churches in order to = >ensure that the voice of the Orthodox Churches is not swamped by larger = >majorities from the Protestant world. The ascendancy of evangelicalism, = >with its personal piety and subjective spirituality (of which = >contemporary concerns for "authenticity" are a secular mirror image) can = >lead to a very different understanding of the Church than that of = >classical Anglicanism. Order and ministry can seem to be convenient = >arrangements rather than something which is part of that which is given = >and handed on, and is an integral part of the claim of the church to = >teach and embody a faith not grounded in human invention but rooted in = >God's self revelation in Jesus Christ, who is the founder and lord of = >the Church.=20 > > In the debates about women bishops in the Church of England = >much will doubtless be heard about inclusivity, but inclusivity is not, = >however, identical with the claim of the Church to be catholic. In this = >debate there are underlying questions about the symbolic significance of = >male and female as both made in the image of God, and yet created in a = >sexually differentiated pattern. There are further questions about the = >nature of the Church, the processes of decision-making, the role of the = >bishop as a focus of unity and the need for working at the difficult = >issues with those historic Churches with which the Church of England = >claims to share the apostolic order of the threefold ministry.=20 > > The Church of England may be, as I tried to explain to the = >ambassador, a "broad church", but it is, and always has been, a broad = >church within a given structure of order and ministry. Its unbalancing = >by the marginalising of those within it with the deepest concern for = >catholic order and sacramental ministry would severely damage its = >identity and its witness. The Week of Prayer for Christian Unity ended = >last week. We need to pray for that unity with deep longing - and act = >accordingly.=20 > > The Right Rev Dr Geoffrey Rowell is Bishop of Gibraltar in = >Europe > =20 > =20 > >-- >To unsubscribe, send ANY message to: faithandlife-unsubscribe@... > >------=_NextPart_001_0C50_01C62422.B43E7D40 > >------------------------------ > >Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2006 21:55:05 GMT >To: faithandlife@... >From: "prolife@..." <prolife@...> >Subject: Re: [FaithandLife] The Dangers of Unbalancing Anglicanism >Message-Id: <20060128.135527.11238.169510@...> > >----__JWM__J41c6.167eS.2781M >Content-Type: multipart/alternative;boundary="--__JWM__J446b.794bS.15fbM" > >----__JWM__J446b.794bS.15fbM >Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >Content-Disposition: inline >Content-Type: text/plain > >Chad+, >I did not get a message or an attachment. >Ray+ > >Please note: message attached > >-- >To unsubscribe, send ANY message to: faithandlife-unsubscribe@... > >----__JWM__J446b.794bS.15fbM > >----__JWM__J41c6.167eS.2781M >Content-Type: message/rfc822 > >Return-Path: <faithandlife-return-11274-prolife=juno.com@...> >Received: from mx21.nyc.untd.com (mx21.nyc.untd.com [10.140.24.81])by maildeliver12.lax.untd.com with SMTP id AABB7ZYRBAQNC73Jfor <prolife@...> (sender <faithandlife-return-11274-prolife=juno.com@...>);Sat, 28 Jan 2006 12:53:53 -0800 (PST) >Received: from associate.com (mail.associate.com [216.196.243.254])by mx21.nyc.untd.com with SMTP id AABB7ZYRAAY8VNLSfor <prolife@...> (sender <faithandlife-return-11274-prolife=juno.com@...>);Sat, 28 Jan 2006 12:53:52 -0800 (PST) >Received: (qmail 10354 invoked by alias); 28 Jan 2006 20:53:42 -0000 >Mailing-List: contact faithandlife-help@...; run by ezmlm >X-No-Archive: yes >list-help: <mailto:faithandlife-help@...> >list-unsubscribe: <mailto:faithandlife-unsubscribe@...> >list-post: <mailto:faithandlife@...> >Reply-To: faithandlife@... >Delivered-To: mailing list faithandlife@... >Received: (qmail 10335 invoked from network); 28 Jan 2006 20:53:42 -0000 >X-MessageWall-Score: 0 (associate.com) >Message-ID: <0c5501c6244c$a0fb8370$f4e20843@Theotokos> >From: "Father Chandler Holder Jones" <fatherchad@...> >To: <jonesstbphl@...>, <Neopuritandoc@...>,"James Gordon Anderson" <gordon@...>,"gregory luther" <gregory_luther@...>, <jefflundy@...>,"Minshall Michael" <minshall_michael@...>,"Linda Burns" <Burnslk50@...>,"Mother Mary Joanna" <siglermother@...>,"Richard Baskwill" <rbaskwil@...>,<faithandlife@...> >Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2006 15:51:29 -0500 >MIME-Version: 1.0 >Content-Type: multipart/related;type="multipart/alternative";boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0C4F_01C62422.B43E7D40" >X-Priority: 3 >X-MSMail-Priority: Normal >X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 >X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 >X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine >Subject: [FaithandLife] The Dangers of Unbalancing Anglicanism >X-ContentStamp: 0:0:0 >X-UNTD-Peer-Info: 216.196.243.254|mail.associate.com|associate.com|faithandlife-return-11274-prolife=juno.com@... >X-UNTD-UBE:-1 > >------=_NextPart_000_0C4F_01C62422.B43E7D40 >Content-Type: multipart/alternative;boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0C50_01C62422.B43E7D40" > >------=_NextPart_001_0C50_01C62422.B43E7D40 >Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1" >Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > The dangers of unbalancing the 'broad church' of AnglicanismCredo by Geoffrey Rowell=20=20=20A FEW weeks ago a European diplomat asked me to explain what = >was meant by saying that the Church of England was "a broad church". As = >Anglican travellers know all too well, it is quite difficult to explain = >the identity of Anglicanism to many Catholic, Orthodox and Protestant = >Christians with no experience of the Church of England. It is, we say, = >both Catholic and reformed, a Church that experienced the Reformation of = >the 16th century, yet was careful to maintain the historic threefold = >apostolic ministry of bishop, priest and deacon; a Church that in its = >orders of morning and evening prayer (matins and evensong) creatively = >continued the pattern of the old monastic daily offices, but adapted for = >congregations; and which retained not only the sacraments, but = >sacramental signs like the ring in marriage and the sign of the cross in = >baptism.=20If there was concern for reformation, there was also concern = >for continuity, and it was the faith and order of the early centuries of = >the Church that were looked to as the benchmark of the English = >Reformation. Later medieval patterns of worship and practice were tested = >against the practice of the undivided church of east and west and early = >apologists for the Church of England emphasised that the English = >Reformation was a reformation by tradition.=20 > > =20=20As the genius of the Church of England grew and developed = >within the broad structure of its "reformed Catholicism" there was room = >for those with different theological emphases. So the Church of England = >accommodated groups with differing expressions of worship and different = >theologies, often co-existing happily, sometimes fighting battles to = >push at the boundaries.=20 > > There were those, like the great 19th-century theologian, F. = >D. Maurice, who were critical of belonging to a party in the Church = >because parties were partial and ended by being sectarian. Maurice saw = >the Church of England as needing the missionary zeal of the evangelical, = >the sacramental worship and sense of order of the Catholic, and the = >liberal concern for critical dialogue with contemporary culture. But all = >were held within the structure of the reformed catholicism of the Church = >of England, in a balance that has been the genius of Anglicanism.=20 > > At the present time there is a danger of unbalancing the = >Church of England, because of debates that touch profoundly the = >over-arching structure of the Church. A synod that still bears too many = >of the marks of a parliamentary system, and which is inclined to believe = >that the church is a democracy, is vulnerable to ecclesiastical party = >pressures and lobbying.=20 > > There is a need for the kind of consensus decision-making = >that is characteristic of both Jesuits and Quakers, and which has = >recently been adopted by the World Council of Churches in order to = >ensure that the voice of the Orthodox Churches is not swamped by larger = >majorities from the Protestant world. The ascendancy of evangelicalism, = >with its personal piety and subjective spirituality (of which = >contemporary concerns for "authenticity" are a secular mirror image) can = >lead to a very different understanding of the Church than that of = >classical Anglicanism. Order and ministry can seem to be convenient = >arrangements rather than something which is part of that which is given = >and handed on, and is an integral part of the claim of the church to = >teach and embody a faith not grounded in human invention but rooted in = >God's self revelation in Jesus Christ, who is the founder and lord of = >the Church.=20 > > In the debates about women bishops in the Church of England = >much will doubtless be heard about inclusivity, but inclusivity is not, = >however, identical with the claim of the Church to be catholic. In this = >debate there are underlying questions about the symbolic significance of = >male and female as both made in the image of God, and yet created in a = >sexually differentiated pattern. There are further questions about the = >nature of the Church, the processes of decision-making, the role of the = >bishop as a focus of unity and the need for working at the difficult = >issues with those historic Churches with which the Church of England = >claims to share the apostolic order of the threefold ministry.=20 > > The Church of England may be, as I tried to explain to the = >ambassador, a "broad church", but it is, and always has been, a broad = >church within a given structure of order and ministry. Its unbalancing = >by the marginalising of those within it with the deepest concern for = >catholic order and sacramental ministry would severely damage its = >identity and its witness. The Week of Prayer for Christian Unity ended = >last week. We need to pray for that unity with deep longing - and act = >accordingly.=20 > > The Right Rev Dr Geoffrey Rowell is Bishop of Gibraltar in = >Europe=20=20 > >-- >To unsubscribe, send ANY message to: faithandlife-unsubscribe@... > >------=_NextPart_001_0C50_01C62422.B43E7D40 > >------=_NextPart_001_0C50_01C62422.B43E7D40-- >------=_NextPart_000_0C4F_01C62422.B43E7D40-- > >------------------------------ > >Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2006 22:22:02 -0000 >To: <faithandlife@...> >From: "JEFFREY STEEL" <jeffrey.steel1@...> >Subject: Re: [FaithandLife] The Dangers of Unbalancing Anglicanism >Message-ID: <000f01c62459$43f4e510$0301a8c0@Anglican> > >Brethren+ > >It is 10.16 pm and I just returned from London to Durham in the NE having >attended a FiF rally that was excellent. Watch the FiF UK news for updates >on the speeches and all the happenings. It was very encouraging! There >really is a desire to have a future in the English Catholic Tradition >without having to make the move to Rome. Please pray for the C of E as she >sorts out the plans of the future as she seeks a way for all parties >involved to be cared for in the love of Christ. > >with all the very best wishes, > >js >----- Original Message ----- > >From: "Father Chandler Holder Jones" <fatherchad@...> >To: <jonesstbphl@...>; <Neopuritandoc@...>; "James Gordon Anderson" ><gordon@...>; "gregory luther" <gregory_luther@...>; ><jefflundy@...>; "Minshall Michael" <minshall_michael@...>; >"Linda Burns" <Burnslk50@...>; "Mother Mary Joanna" ><siglermother@...>; "Richard Baskwill" <rbaskwil@...>; ><faithandlife@...> >Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2006 8:51 PM >Subject: [FaithandLife] The Dangers of Unbalancing Anglicanism > > The dangers of unbalancing the 'broad church' of Anglicanism > Credo by Geoffrey Rowell > > A FEW weeks ago a European diplomat asked me to explain what was >meant by saying that the Church of England was "a broad church". As Anglican >travellers know all too well, it is quite difficult to explain the identity >of Anglicanism to many Catholic, Orthodox and Protestant Christians with no >experience of the Church of England. It is, we say, both Catholic and >reformed, a Church that experienced the Reformation of the 16th century, yet >was careful to maintain the historic threefold apostolic ministry of bishop, >priest and deacon; a Church that in its orders of morning and evening prayer >(matins and evensong) creatively continued the pattern of the old monastic >daily offices, but adapted for congregations; and which retained not only >the sacraments, but sacramental signs like the ring in marriage and the sign >of the cross in baptism. > If there was concern for reformation, there was also concern for >continuity, and it was the faith and order of the early centuries of the >Church that were looked to as the benchmark of the English Reformation. >Later medieval patterns of worship and practice were tested against the >practice of the undivided church of east and west and early apologists for >the Church of England emphasised that the English Reformation was a >reformation by tradition. > > As the genius of the Church of England grew and developed within >the broad structure of its "reformed Catholicism" there was room for those >with different theological emphases. So the Church of England accommodated >groups with differing expressions of worship and different theologies, often >co-existing happily, sometimes fighting battles to push at the boundaries. > > There were those, like the great 19th-century theologian, F. D. >Maurice, who were critical of belonging to a party in the Church because >parties were partial and ended by being sectarian. Maurice saw the Church of >England as needing the missionary zeal of the evangelical, the sacramental >worship and sense of order of the Catholic, and the liberal concern for >critical dialogue with contemporary culture. But all were held within the >structure of the reformed catholicism of the Church of England, in a balance >that has been the genius of Anglicanism. > > At the present time there is a danger of unbalancing the Church >of England, because of debates that touch profoundly the over-arching >structure of the Church. A synod that still bears too many of the marks of a >parliamentary system, and which is inclined to believe that the church is a >democracy, is vulnerable to ecclesiastical party pressures and lobbying. > > There is a need for the kind of consensus decision-making that >is characteristic of both Jesuits and Quakers, and which has recently been >adopted by the World Council of Churches in order to ensure that the voice >of the Orthodox Churches is not swamped by larger majorities from the >Protestant world. The ascendancy of evangelicalism, with its personal piety >and subjective spirituality (of which contemporary concerns for >"authenticity" are a secular mirror image) can lead to a very different >understanding of the Church than that of classical Anglicanism. Order and >ministry can seem to be convenient arrangements rather than something which >is part of that which is given and handed on, and is an integral part of the >claim of the church to teach and embody a faith not grounded in human >invention but rooted in God's self revelation in Jesus Christ, who is the >founder and lord of the Church. > > In the debates about women bishops in the Church of England much >will doubtless be heard about inclusivity, but inclusivity is not, however, >identical with the claim of the Church to be catholic. In this debate there >are underlying questions about the symbolic significance of male and female >as both made in the image of God, and yet created in a sexually >differentiated pattern. There are further questions about the nature of the >Church, the processes of decision-making, the role of the bishop as a focus >of unity and the need for working at the difficult issues with those >historic Churches with which the Church of England claims to share the >apostolic order of the threefold ministry. > > The Church of England may be, as I tried to explain to the >ambassador, a "broad church", but it is, and always has been, a broad church >within a given structure of order and ministry. Its unbalancing by the >marginalising of those within it with the deepest concern for catholic order >and sacramental ministry would severely damage its identity and its witness. >The Week of Prayer for Christian Unity ended last week. We need to pray for >that unity with deep longing - and act accordingly. > > The Right Rev Dr Geoffrey Rowell is Bishop of Gibraltar in >Europe > >-- >To unsubscribe, send ANY message to: faithandlife-unsubscribe@... > >------------------------------ > >Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2006 18:36:32 -0500 >To: <faithandlife@...> >From: "Michael Ward" <mward@...> >Subject: RE: [FaithandLife] The Dangers of Unbalancing Anglicanism >Message-ID: <C952E09E1C13F74FA9B0ACEF856928D012E108@...> > >Shouldn't you be officiating a wedding or something.... > >MLW+ > >-----Original Message----- >From: Father Chandler Holder Jones [mailto:fatherchad@...]=20 >Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2006 3:51 PM >To: jonesstbphl@...; Neopuritandoc@...; James Gordon Anderson; >gregory luther; jefflundy@...; Minshall Michael; Linda Burns; >Mother Mary Joanna; Richard Baskwill; faithandlife@... >Subject: [FaithandLife] The Dangers of Unbalancing Anglicanism > > The dangers of unbalancing the 'broad church' of Anglicanism > Credo by Geoffrey Rowell > =20 > =20 > =20 > A FEW weeks ago a European diplomat asked me to explain what = >was >meant by saying that the Church of England was "a broad church". As = >Anglican >travellers know all too well, it is quite difficult to explain the = >identity >of Anglicanism to many Catholic, Orthodox and Protestant Christians with = >no >experience of the Church of England. It is, we say, both Catholic and >reformed, a Church that experienced the Reformation of the 16th century, = >yet >was careful to maintain the historic threefold apostolic ministry of = >bishop, >priest and deacon; a Church that in its orders of morning and evening = >prayer >(matins and evensong) creatively continued the pattern of the old = >monastic >daily offices, but adapted for congregations; and which retained not = >only >the sacraments, but sacramental signs like the ring in marriage and the = >sign >of the cross in baptism.=20 > If there was concern for reformation, there was also concern = >for >continuity, and it was the faith and order of the early centuries of the >Church that were looked to as the benchmark of the English Reformation. >Later medieval patterns of worship and practice were tested against the >practice of the undivided church of east and west and early apologists = >for >the Church of England emphasised that the English Reformation was a >reformation by tradition.=20 > > =20 > =20 > As the genius of the Church of England grew and developed = >within >the broad structure of its "reformed Catholicism" there was room for = >those >with different theological emphases. So the Church of England = >accommodated >groups with differing expressions of worship and different theologies, = >often >co-existing happily, sometimes fighting battles to push at the = >boundaries.=20 > > There were those, like the great 19th-century theologian, F. = >D. >Maurice, who were critical of belonging to a party in the Church because >parties were partial and ended by being sectarian. Maurice saw the = >Church of >England as needing the missionary zeal of the evangelical, the = >sacramental >worship and sense of order of the Catholic, and the liberal concern for >critical dialogue with contemporary culture. But all were held within = >the >structure of the reformed catholicism of the Church of England, in a = >balance >that has been the genius of Anglicanism.=20 > > At the present time there is a danger of unbalancing the = >Church >of England, because of debates that touch profoundly the over-arching >structure of the Church. A synod that still bears too many of the marks = >of a >parliamentary system, and which is inclined to believe that the church = >is a >democracy, is vulnerable to ecclesiastical party pressures and lobbying. = > > There is a need for the kind of consensus decision-making = >that >is characteristic of both Jesuits and Quakers, and which has recently = >been >adopted by the World Council of Churches in order to ensure that the = >voice >of the Orthodox Churches is not swamped by larger majorities from the >Protestant world. The ascendancy of evangelicalism, with its personal = >piety >and subjective spirituality (of which contemporary concerns for >"authenticity" are a secular mirror image) can lead to a very different >understanding of the Church than that of classical Anglicanism. Order = >and >ministry can seem to be convenient arrangements rather than something = >which >is part of that which is given and handed on, and is an integral part of = >the >claim of the church to teach and embody a faith not grounded in human >invention but rooted in God's self revelation in Jesus Christ, who is = >the >founder and lord of the Church.=20 > > In the debates about women bishops in the Church of England = >much >will doubtless be heard about inclusivity, but inclusivity is not, = >however, >identical with the claim of the Church to be catholic. In this debate = >there >are underlying questions about the symbolic significance of male and = >female >as both made in the image of God, and yet created in a sexually >differentiated pattern. There are further questions about the nature of = >the >Church, the processes of decision-making, the role of the bishop as a = >focus >of unity and the need for working at the difficult issues with those >historic Churches with which the Church of England claims to share the >apostolic order of the threefold ministry.=20 > > The Church of England may be, as I tried to explain to the >ambassador, a "broad church", but it is, and always has been, a broad = >church >within a given structure of order and ministry. Its unbalancing by the >marginalising of those within it with the deepest concern for catholic = >order >and sacramental ministry would severely damage its identity and its = >witness. >The Week of Prayer for Christian Unity ended last week. We need to pray = >for >that unity with deep longing - and act accordingly.=20 > > The Right Rev Dr Geoffrey Rowell is Bishop of Gibraltar in >Europe > =20 > =20 > >-- >To unsubscribe, send ANY message to: = >faithandlife-unsubscribe@... > >------------------------------ > >Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2006 00:23:18 -0000 >To: <faithandlife@...> >From: "JEFFREY STEEL" <jeffrey.steel1@...> >Subject: Re: [FaithandLife] The Dangers of Unbalancing Anglicanism >Message-ID: <002401c6246a$345f6c40$0301a8c0@Anglican> > >http://www.forwardinfaith.com/hope/ Let me especially encourage all of you >to hear and listen to Bishop Martyn Jarrett's speech as he is the PEV for >the NE of England. Listen to this and the applause at the end!!!!! It was >an incredible thing to be in attendance at today. Also, listen the to the >last song we sang before departing. Quite an interesting prayerful day! > >all the best dear brethren, > >js >----- Original Message ----- >From: "JEFFREY STEEL" <jeffrey.steel1@...> >To: <faithandlife@...> >Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2006 10:22 PM >Subject: Re: [FaithandLife] The Dangers of Unbalancing Anglicanism > > > >>Brethren+ >> >>It is 10.16 pm and I just returned from London to Durham in the NE having >>attended a FiF rally that was excellent. Watch the FiF UK news for updates >>on the speeches and all the happenings. It was very encouraging! There >>really is a desire to have a future in the English Catholic Tradition >>without having to make the move to Rome. Please pray for the C of E as >>she sorts out the plans of the future as she seeks a way for all parties >>involved to be cared for in the love of Christ. >> >> >>with all the very best wishes, >> >>js >>----- Original Message ----- >> >> >> >>From: "Father Chandler Holder Jones" <fatherchad@...> >>To: <jonesstbphl@...>; <Neopuritandoc@...>; "James Gordon Anderson" >><gordon@...>; "gregory luther" <gregory_luther@...>; >><jefflundy@...>; "Minshall Michael" <minshall_michael@...>; >>"Linda Burns" <Burnslk50@...>; "Mother Mary Joanna" >><siglermother@...>; "Richard Baskwill" <rbaskwil@...>; >><faithandlife@...> >>Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2006 8:51 PM >>Subject: [FaithandLife] The Dangers of Unbalancing Anglicanism >> >> >> The dangers of unbalancing the 'broad church' of Anglicanism >> Credo by Geoffrey Rowell >> >> >> >> A FEW weeks ago a European diplomat asked me to explain what >>was meant by saying that the Church of England was "a broad church". As >>Anglican travellers know all too well, it is quite difficult to explain >>the identity of Anglicanism to many Catholic, Orthodox and Protestant >>Christians with no experience of the Church of England. It is, we say, >>both Catholic and reformed, a Church that experienced the Reformation of >>the 16th century, yet was careful to maintain the historic threefold >>apostolic ministry of bishop, priest and deacon; a Church that in its >>orders of morning and evening prayer (matins and evensong) creatively >>continued the pattern of the old monastic daily offices, but adapted for >>congregations; and which retained not only the sacraments, but sacramental >>signs like the ring in marriage and the sign of the cross in baptism. >> If there was concern for reformation, there was also concern >>for continuity, and it was the faith and order of the early centuries of >>the Church that were looked to as the benchmark of the English >>Reformation. Later medieval patterns of worship and practice were tested >>against the practice of the undivided church of east and west and early >>apologists for the Church of England emphasised that the English >>Reformation was a reformation by tradition. >> >> >> >> As the genius of the Church of England grew and developed >>within the broad structure of its "reformed Catholicism" there was room >>for those with different theological emphases. So the Church of England >>accommodated groups with differing expressions of worship and different >>theologies, often co-existing happily, sometimes fighting battles to push >>at the boundaries. >> >> There were those, like the great 19th-century theologian, F. D. >>Maurice, who were critical of belonging to a party in the Church because >>parties were partial and ended by being sectarian. Maurice saw the Church >>of England as needing the missionary zeal of the evangelical, the >>sacramental worship and sense of order of the Catholic, and the liberal >>concern for critical dialogue with contemporary culture. But all were held >>within the structure of the reformed catholicism of the Church of England, >>in a balance that has been the genius of Anglicanism. >> >> At the present time there is a danger of unbalancing the Church >>of England, because of debates that touch profoundly the over-arching >>structure of the Church. A synod that still bears too many of the marks of >>a parliamentary system, and which is inclined to believe that the church >>is a democracy, is vulnerable to ecclesiastical party pressures and >>lobbying. >> >> There is a need for the kind of consensus decision-making that >>is characteristic of both Jesuits and Quakers, and which has recently been >>adopted by the World Council of Churches in order to ensure that the voice >>of the Orthodox Churches is not swamped by larger majorities from the >>Protestant world. The ascendancy of evangelicalism, with its personal >>piety and subjective spirituality (of which contemporary concerns for >>"authenticity" are a secular mirror image) can lead to a very different >>understanding of the Church than that of classical Anglicanism. Order and >>ministry can seem to be convenient arrangements rather than something >>which is part of that which is given and handed on, and is an integral >>part of the claim of the church to teach and embody a faith not grounded >>in human invention but rooted in God's self revelation in Jesus Christ, >>who is the founder and lord of the Church. >> >> In the debates about women bishops in the Church of England >>much will doubtless be heard about inclusivity, but inclusivity is not, >>however, identical with the claim of the Church to be catholic. In this >>debate there are underlying questions about the symbolic significance of >>male and female as both made in the image of God, and yet created in a >>sexually differentiated pattern. There are further questions about the >>nature of the Church, the processes of decision-making, the role of the >>bishop as a focus of unity and the need for working at the difficult >>issues with those historic Churches with which the Church of England >>claims to share the apostolic order of the threefold ministry. >> >> The Church of England may be, as I tried to explain to the >>ambassador, a "broad church", but it is, and always has been, a broad >>church within a given structure of order and ministry. Its unbalancing by >>the marginalising of those within it with the deepest concern for catholic >>order and sacramental ministry would severely damage its identity and its >>witness. The Week of Prayer for Christian Unity ended last week. We need >>to pray for that unity with deep longing - and act accordingly. >> >> >> >> >> The Right Rev Dr Geoffrey Rowell is Bishop of Gibraltar in >>Europe >> >> >> >>-- >>To unsubscribe, send ANY message to: >>faithandlife-unsubscribe@... >> >> >> >>-- >>To unsubscribe, send ANY message to: >>faithandlife-unsubscribe@... >> >> >> >> > >------------------------------ > >Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2006 22:28:04 -0500 >To: faithandlife@... >From: "The Rev. Charles A. Collins, Jr., S.B.R." <drew.collins@...> >Subject: Griffith Thomas on Marian (and other) Intercessions >Message-ID: <67b584450601281928g55b4c12ft9d150feebfdda750@...> > >Brethren, > >I'm really not trying to stir things up, but in light of the recent >discussion of Marian Intercessions I thought the following from >Griffith Thomas' Principles of Theology might be of interest. At >least some Anglicans (I would place myself in that group -- big >surprise!) have had problems with the concept: > >"In the face of the full, deep, rich teaching of Holy Scripture >concerning the direct approach of the soul to God, and the numerous >invitations to 'draw near with assurance of faith,' anything short of >this really amounts to distrust and disobedience." -- The Rev. W.H. >Griffith Thomas, D.D. > >Soli Deo Gloria! > >Drew > >-- >The Rev. Charles A. Collins, Jr., S.B.R. >Assisting Presbyter, New Israel Reformed Episcopal Church, Charleston, SC >Correspondent, The Christian Observer > >289 Hastings Dr. >Goose Creek, SC 29445 >Home: (843) 832-6408 >E-mail: drew.collins@... >AIM: DrewCollinsSC >Weblogs: http://www.palmettoanglican.blogspot.com >http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=3Dcranmer > >"Grace groweth best in winter." -- The Rev. Samuel Rutherford > >------------------------------ > >Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2006 22:47:02 EST >To: faithandlife@... >From: GMSpencer@... >Subject: Re: [FaithandLife] Griffith Thomas on Marian (and other) Intercessions >Message-ID: <1ac.4730e78e.310d94b6@...> > >--part1_1ac.4730e78e.310d94b6_boundary >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" >Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > >In a message dated 1/28/06 10:28:10 PM, drew.collins@... writes: > > > >>=20 >>"In the face of the full, deep, rich teaching of Holy Scripture >>concerning the direct approach of the soul to God, and the