I like the phrase, "Missal Fundamentalists," Jim+! (In the past, in a
hurry, I've said "Selective Scriptural Literalists." X Regards.
KnoxDuncan@...
----- Original Message -----
From: "James T. Payne" <stoc@...>
To: <faithandlife@...>
Sent: Sunday, January 29, 2006 6:42 PM
Subject: [FaithandLife] Re: No Way APA
>
>
>
> Re: No Way APA site.
>
> Every organization has its kooks and extremists. We in the REC have the
> "Presbyterians with a Prayer Book" crowd, but I wager the APA has some
> of its own wing nuts in the form of what I call "Missal fundamentalists"
> who practice an equally extremist, if totally opposite version of
> Anglicanism. In both cases the motivations are excessive fear and anger
> which defies logic.
>
> It's really too bad that the 5-10% or so of the people on the lunatic
> fringes of our respective jurisdictions can cause so much grief for the
> 80-90% who are charitable in their differences and who recognize that we
> are all supposed to be brothers and sisters in Christ.
>
>
> The fact is that the dynamic tension between the Reformed and Catholic
> aspects of the Anglican Way provide for a church that is faithful to an
> approach which is both sacramental and evangelical. In short we can each
> learn something from the other, and we need each other to be whole.
>
> I sometimes think we might all be better off if our (the REC's)
> quasi-Prsbyterians and the APA's crypto-Romans just went on to their
> respective destinations and left the rest of us in peace.
> I for one, invite them to make themselves and the rest of us happy by
> voting with their feet.
> They will be missed like a toothache.
>
> (Just my personal opinion as a long-time veteran of the churchmanship
> wars.)
>
> (The Rev'd Canon) James T. Payne
> St. Thomas of Canterbury (REC)
> Houston, Texas
>
> www.stochouston.org
>
>
>
>
> faithandlife-digest-help@... wrote:
>
>>faithandlife Digest 29 Jan 2006 13:58:14 -0000 Issue 944
>>
>>Topics (messages 11263 through 11289):
>>
>>Re: Disturbing Site
>> 11263 by: The Rev. Fr. Johann W. Vanderbijl III
>> 11264 by: Michael Ward
>> 11265 by: Derrick L. Hassert
>> 11270 by: Knox Duncan
>>
>>blog site
>> 11266 by: JEFFREY STEEL
>> 11267 by: JEFFREY STEEL
>> 11268 by: Michael Ward
>> 11269 by: JEFFREY STEEL
>> 11271 by: Michael Ward
>>
>>Re: RSVP:Medjugorje- a rebuttal
>> 11272 by: GMSpencer.aol.com
>>
>>Invocation of the Saints
>> 11273 by: John S. Longcamp
>> 11278 by: Frank Warren
>> 11279 by: GMSpencer.aol.com
>> 11280 by: Frank Warren
>> 11281 by: GMSpencer.aol.com
>> 11283 by: GMSpencer.aol.com
>>
>>The Dangers of Unbalancing Anglicanism
>> 11274 by: Father Chandler Holder Jones
>> 11275 by: prolife.juno.com
>> 11276 by: JEFFREY STEEL
>> 11277 by: Michael Ward
>> 11282 by: JEFFREY STEEL
>>
>>Griffith Thomas on Marian (and other) Intercessions
>> 11284 by: The Rev. Charles A. Collins, Jr., S.B.R.
>> 11285 by: GMSpencer.aol.com
>> 11287 by: The Rev. Charles A. Collins, Jr., S.B.R.
>>
>>Re: Edward Pusey on Marian (and other) Intercessions
>> 11286 by: Derrick L. Hassert
>> 11288 by: The Rev. Charles A. Collins, Jr., S.B.R.
>> 11289 by: Mark & Mary Woolsey
>>
>>Administrivia:
>>
>>To subscribe to the digest, e-mail:
>> <faithandlife-digest-subscribe@...>
>>
>>To unsubscribe from the digest, e-mail:
>> <faithandlife-digest-unsubscribe@...>
>>
>>To post to the list, e-mail:
>> <faithandlife@...>
>>
>>
>>----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 12:14:38 -0500
>>To: <faithandlife@...>
>>From: "The Rev. Fr. Johann W. Vanderbijl III" <cranmer@...>
>>Subject: Re: Disturbing Site
>>Message-ID: <000601c62365$276ef510$6101a8c0@Johann>
>>
>>Do you all know about this site?
>>
>>http://www.no-way-apa.net/
>>
>>Why are people doing this sort of thing? Do they really think this is
>>even
>>vaguely Christian? What about the Matthew 18 principle and many other
>>commands to deal with differences privately and in a Christian manner?
>>
>>J.+
>>
>>The Rev. Fr. Johann W. Vanderbijl III, Rector
>>The Anglican Church of St. George the Martyr, R.E.
>>427 Batesville Road
>>Simpsonville, SC 29681
>>cranmer@...
>>www.stgeorge-re.org
>>
>>------------------------------
>>
>>Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 12:53:38 -0500
>>To: <faithandlife@...>
>>From: "Michael Ward" <mward@...>
>>Subject: RE: [FaithandLife] Re: Disturbing Site
>>Message-ID: <C952E09E1C13F74FA9B0ACEF856928D012E0F5@...>
>>
>>That's something, isn't it. But then, since whomever it is that put the
>>site up has chosen not to put his name on it, one must wonder about his =
>>--
>>or quite possibly her -- credibility. Sort of the Hamas of Christendom.
>>
>>MLW+
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: The Rev. Fr. Johann W. Vanderbijl III =
>>[mailto:cranmer@...]=20
>>Sent: Friday, January 27, 2006 12:15 PM
>>To: faithandlife@...
>>Subject: [FaithandLife] Re: Disturbing Site
>>
>>Do you all know about this site?
>>
>>http://www.no-way-apa.net/
>>
>>Why are people doing this sort of thing? Do they really think this is =
>>even=20
>>vaguely Christian? What about the Matthew 18 principle and many other=20
>>commands to deal with differences privately and in a Christian manner?
>>
>>J.+
>>
>>The Rev. Fr. Johann W. Vanderbijl III, Rector
>>The Anglican Church of St. George the Martyr, R.E.
>>427 Batesville Road
>>Simpsonville, SC 29681
>>cranmer@...
>>www.stgeorge-re.org=20
>>
>>--
>>To unsubscribe, send ANY message to: =
>>faithandlife-unsubscribe@...
>>
>>------------------------------
>>
>>Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 09:58:20 -0800 (PST)
>>To: faithandlife@...
>>From: "Derrick L. Hassert" <dlhassert@...>
>>Subject: RE: [FaithandLife] Re: Disturbing Site
>>Message-ID: <20060127175821.84637.qmail@...>
>>
>>--0-1106044210-1138384700=:83498
>>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
>>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
>>
>>It seems somewhat obvious that this individual doesn't want to be Anglican
>>(low church or otherwise). I'm not sure he'd even claim the name for
>>himself. We're not Presbyterians with Prayer Books, nor are we 19th
>>century Roman Catholics without the Pope. We are "Protestant and Reformed
>>according to the principles of the ancient Catholic Church" (Bp. Cosin),
>>teaching only that which can be proved from Holy Scripture or that which
>>the ancient catholic fathers and doctors could prove from the same. If we
>>cease to follow these admonitions we cease to be Anglicans (we can either
>>drop off the low end in our deletions from essentials of the Faith or fall
>>off the high end and transform ourselves into 19th century Tridentine
>>Roman Catholics).
>>
>> DH
>>
>>Michael Ward <mward@...> wrote:
>> That's something, isn't it. But then, since whomever it is that put the
>>site up has chosen not to put his name on it, one must wonder about his --
>>or quite possibly her -- credibility. Sort of the Hamas of Christendom.
>>
>>MLW+
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: The Rev. Fr. Johann W. Vanderbijl III [mailto:cranmer@...]
>>Sent: Friday, January 27, 2006 12:15 PM
>>To: faithandlife@...
>>Subject: [FaithandLife] Re: Disturbing Site
>>
>>Do you all know about this site?
>>
>>http://www.no-way-apa.net/
>>
>>Why are people doing this sort of thing? Do they really think this is even
>>vaguely Christian? What about the Matthew 18 principle and many other
>>commands to deal with differences privately and in a Christian manner?
>>
>>J.+
>>
>>The Rev. Fr. Johann W. Vanderbijl III, Rector
>>The Anglican Church of St. George the Martyr, R.E.
>>427 Batesville Road
>>Simpsonville, SC 29681
>>cranmer@...
>>www.stgeorge-re.org
>>
>>--
>>To unsubscribe, send ANY message to:
>>faithandlife-unsubscribe@...
>>
>>--
>>To unsubscribe, send ANY message to:
>>faithandlife-unsubscribe@...
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>---------------------------------
>> Yahoo! Autos. Looking for a sweet ride? Get pricing, reviews, & more on
>> new and used cars.
>>--
>>To unsubscribe, send ANY message to:
>>faithandlife-unsubscribe@...
>>
>>------------------------------
>>
>>Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 12:36:39 -0600
>>To: <faithandlife@...>
>>From: "Knox Duncan" <knoxduncan@...>
>>Subject: Re: [FaithandLife] Re: Disturbing Site
>>Message-ID: <005b01c62370$9e1121b0$8647fd04@jkd>
>>
>>Excellent summation, Derrick! Regards. KnoxDuncan@...
>>
>>----- Original Message -----
>>From: "Derrick L. Hassert" <dlhassert@...>
>>To: <faithandlife@...>
>>Sent: Friday, January 27, 2006 11:58 AM
>>Subject: RE: [FaithandLife] Re: Disturbing Site
>>
>>
>>
>>>It seems somewhat obvious that this individual doesn't want to be
>>>Anglican
>>>(low church or otherwise). I'm not sure he'd even claim the name for
>>>himself. We're not Presbyterians with Prayer Books, nor are we 19th
>>>century Roman Catholics without the Pope. We are "Protestant and Reformed
>>>according to the principles of the ancient Catholic Church" (Bp. Cosin),
>>>teaching only that which can be proved from Holy Scripture or that which
>>>the ancient catholic fathers and doctors could prove from the same. If we
>>>cease to follow these admonitions we cease to be Anglicans (we can either
>>>drop off the low end in our deletions from essentials of the Faith or
>>>fall
>>>off the high end and transform ourselves into 19th century Tridentine
>>>Roman Catholics).
>>>
>>> DH
>>>
>>>Michael Ward <mward@...> wrote:
>>> That's something, isn't it. But then, since whomever it is that put the
>>>site up has chosen not to put his name on it, one must wonder about
>>>his --
>>>or quite possibly her -- credibility. Sort of the Hamas of Christendom.
>>>
>>>MLW+
>>>
>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>From: The Rev. Fr. Johann W. Vanderbijl III
>>>[mailto:cranmer@...]
>>>Sent: Friday, January 27, 2006 12:15 PM
>>>To: faithandlife@...
>>>Subject: [FaithandLife] Re: Disturbing Site
>>>
>>>Do you all know about this site?
>>>
>>>http://www.no-way-apa.net/
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>------------------------------
>>
>>Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 18:06:19 -0000
>>To: <faithandlife@...>
>>From: "JEFFREY STEEL" <jeffrey.steel1@...>
>>Subject: blog site
>>Message-ID: <003f01c6236c$6051c6d0$05000100@Anglican>
>>
>>Would love to your thoughts on my new blog format.
>>
>>js
>>----- Original Message -----
>>From: "The Rev. Fr. Johann W. Vanderbijl III" <cranmer@...>
>>To: <faithandlife@...>
>>Sent: Friday, January 27, 2006 5:14 PM
>>Subject: [FaithandLife] Re: Disturbing Site
>>
>>
>>
>>>Do you all know about this site?
>>>
>>>http://www.no-way-apa.net/
>>>
>>>Why are people doing this sort of thing? Do they really think this is
>>>even vaguely Christian? What about the Matthew 18 principle and many
>>>other commands to deal with differences privately and in a Christian
>>>manner?
>>>
>>>J.+
>>>
>>>The Rev. Fr. Johann W. Vanderbijl III, Rector
>>>The Anglican Church of St. George the Martyr, R.E.
>>>427 Batesville Road
>>>Simpsonville, SC 29681
>>>cranmer@...
>>>www.stgeorge-re.org
>>>
>>>
>>>--
>>>To unsubscribe, send ANY message to:
>>>faithandlife-unsubscribe@...
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>------------------------------
>>
>>Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 18:13:49 -0000
>>To: <faithandlife@...>
>>From: "JEFFREY STEEL" <jeffrey.steel1@...>
>>Subject: Re: [FaithandLife] blog site
>>Message-ID: <004401c6236d$6c854ac0$05000100@Anglican>
>>
>>www.meam-commemorationem.blogspot.com
>>
>>----- Original Message -----
>>From: "JEFFREY STEEL" <jeffrey.steel1@...>
>>To: <faithandlife@...>
>>Sent: Friday, January 27, 2006 6:06 PM
>>Subject: [FaithandLife] blog site
>>
>>
>>
>>>Would love to your thoughts on my new blog format.
>>>
>>>js
>>>----- Original Message -----
>>>From: "The Rev. Fr. Johann W. Vanderbijl III" <cranmer@...>
>>>To: <faithandlife@...>
>>>Sent: Friday, January 27, 2006 5:14 PM
>>>Subject: [FaithandLife] Re: Disturbing Site
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>Do you all know about this site?
>>>>
>>>>http://www.no-way-apa.net/
>>>>
>>>>Why are people doing this sort of thing? Do they really think this is
>>>>even vaguely Christian? What about the Matthew 18 principle and many
>>>>other commands to deal with differences privately and in a Christian
>>>>manner?
>>>>
>>>>J.+
>>>>
>>>>The Rev. Fr. Johann W. Vanderbijl III, Rector
>>>>The Anglican Church of St. George the Martyr, R.E.
>>>>427 Batesville Road
>>>>Simpsonville, SC 29681
>>>>cranmer@...
>>>>www.stgeorge-re.org
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>--
>>>>To unsubscribe, send ANY message to:
>>>>faithandlife-unsubscribe@...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>--
>>>To unsubscribe, send ANY message to:
>>>faithandlife-unsubscribe@...
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>------------------------------
>>
>>Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 13:24:00 -0500
>>To: <faithandlife@...>
>>From: "Michael Ward" <mward@...>
>>Subject: RE: [FaithandLife] blog site
>>Message-ID: <C952E09E1C13F74FA9B0ACEF856928D012E0F7@...>
>>
>>Jeffrey:
>>
>>I like it and the links are extensive (and great!). But is there any =
>>reason
>>the 1928 BCP isn't included with the liturgical links?
>>
>>MLW+
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: JEFFREY STEEL [mailto:jeffrey.steel1@...]=20
>>Sent: Friday, January 27, 2006 1:14 PM
>>To: faithandlife@...
>>Subject: Re: [FaithandLife] blog site
>>
>>www.meam-commemorationem.blogspot.com
>>
>>----- Original Message -----=20
>>From: "JEFFREY STEEL" <jeffrey.steel1@...>
>>To: <faithandlife@...>
>>Sent: Friday, January 27, 2006 6:06 PM
>>Subject: [FaithandLife] blog site
>>
>>
>>
>>>Would love to your thoughts on my new blog format.
>>>
>>>js
>>>----- Original Message -----=20
>>>From: "The Rev. Fr. Johann W. Vanderbijl III" <cranmer@...>
>>>To: <faithandlife@...>
>>>Sent: Friday, January 27, 2006 5:14 PM
>>>Subject: [FaithandLife] Re: Disturbing Site
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>Do you all know about this site?
>>>>
>>>>http://www.no-way-apa.net/
>>>>
>>>>Why are people doing this sort of thing? Do they really think this =
>>>>
>>>>
>>is=20
>>
>>
>>>>even vaguely Christian? What about the Matthew 18 principle and many =
>>>>
>>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>>other commands to deal with differences privately and in a Christian=20
>>>>manner?
>>>>
>>>>J.+
>>>>
>>>>The Rev. Fr. Johann W. Vanderbijl III, Rector
>>>>The Anglican Church of St. George the Martyr, R.E.
>>>>427 Batesville Road
>>>>Simpsonville, SC 29681
>>>>cranmer@...
>>>>www.stgeorge-re.org
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>--
>>>>To unsubscribe, send ANY message to:=20
>>>>faithandlife-unsubscribe@...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>--
>>>To unsubscribe, send ANY message to:=20
>>>faithandlife-unsubscribe@...
>>>
>>>=20
>>>
>>>
>>
>>--
>>To unsubscribe, send ANY message to: =
>>faithandlife-unsubscribe@...
>>
>>------------------------------
>>
>>Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 18:26:41 -0000
>>To: <faithandlife@...>
>>From: "JEFFREY STEEL" <jeffrey.steel1@...>
>>Subject: Re: [FaithandLife] blog site
>>Message-ID: <000a01c6236f$383d20b0$05000100@Anglican>
>>
>>ah, i missed it. sorry about that! i will remedy that.
>>
>>js
>>----- Original Message -----
>>From: "Michael Ward" <mward@...>
>>To: <faithandlife@...>
>>Sent: Friday, January 27, 2006 6:24 PM
>>Subject: RE: [FaithandLife] blog site
>>
>>Jeffrey:
>>
>>I like it and the links are extensive (and great!). But is there any
>>reason
>>the 1928 BCP isn't included with the liturgical links?
>>
>>MLW+
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: JEFFREY STEEL [mailto:jeffrey.steel1@...]
>>Sent: Friday, January 27, 2006 1:14 PM
>>To: faithandlife@...
>>Subject: Re: [FaithandLife] blog site
>>
>>www.meam-commemorationem.blogspot.com
>>
>>----- Original Message -----
>>From: "JEFFREY STEEL" <jeffrey.steel1@...>
>>To: <faithandlife@...>
>>Sent: Friday, January 27, 2006 6:06 PM
>>Subject: [FaithandLife] blog site
>>
>>
>>
>>>Would love to your thoughts on my new blog format.
>>>
>>>js
>>>----- Original Message -----
>>>From: "The Rev. Fr. Johann W. Vanderbijl III" <cranmer@...>
>>>To: <faithandlife@...>
>>>Sent: Friday, January 27, 2006 5:14 PM
>>>Subject: [FaithandLife] Re: Disturbing Site
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>Do you all know about this site?
>>>>
>>>>http://www.no-way-apa.net/
>>>>
>>>>Why are people doing this sort of thing? Do they really think this is
>>>>even vaguely Christian? What about the Matthew 18 principle and many
>>>>other commands to deal with differences privately and in a Christian
>>>>manner?
>>>>
>>>>J.+
>>>>
>>>>The Rev. Fr. Johann W. Vanderbijl III, Rector
>>>>The Anglican Church of St. George the Martyr, R.E.
>>>>427 Batesville Road
>>>>Simpsonville, SC 29681
>>>>cranmer@...
>>>>www.stgeorge-re.org
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>--
>>>>To unsubscribe, send ANY message to:
>>>>faithandlife-unsubscribe@...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>--
>>>To unsubscribe, send ANY message to:
>>>faithandlife-unsubscribe@...
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>--
>>To unsubscribe, send ANY message to:
>>faithandlife-unsubscribe@...
>>
>>--
>>To unsubscribe, send ANY message to:
>>faithandlife-unsubscribe@...
>>
>>------------------------------
>>
>>Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 14:33:45 -0500
>>To: <faithandlife@...>
>>From: "Michael Ward" <mward@...>
>>Subject: RE: [FaithandLife] blog site
>>Message-ID: <C952E09E1C13F74FA9B0ACEF856928D012E0FC@...>
>>
>>I appreciate the link to the 1570 Roman Mass. Is there anything =
>>available
>>that shows the pre-Tridentine Mass?
>>
>>MLW+
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: JEFFREY STEEL [mailto:jeffrey.steel1@...]=20
>>Sent: Friday, January 27, 2006 1:27 PM
>>To: faithandlife@...
>>Subject: Re: [FaithandLife] blog site
>>
>>ah, i missed it. sorry about that! i will remedy that.
>>
>>js
>>----- Original Message -----=20
>>From: "Michael Ward" <mward@...>
>>To: <faithandlife@...>
>>Sent: Friday, January 27, 2006 6:24 PM
>>Subject: RE: [FaithandLife] blog site
>>
>>Jeffrey:
>>
>>I like it and the links are extensive (and great!). But is there any =
>>reason
>>the 1928 BCP isn't included with the liturgical links?
>>
>>MLW+
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: JEFFREY STEEL [mailto:jeffrey.steel1@...]
>>Sent: Friday, January 27, 2006 1:14 PM
>>To: faithandlife@...
>>Subject: Re: [FaithandLife] blog site
>>
>>www.meam-commemorationem.blogspot.com
>>
>>----- Original Message -----=20
>>From: "JEFFREY STEEL" <jeffrey.steel1@...>
>>To: <faithandlife@...>
>>Sent: Friday, January 27, 2006 6:06 PM
>>Subject: [FaithandLife] blog site
>>
>>
>>
>>>Would love to your thoughts on my new blog format.
>>>
>>>js
>>>----- Original Message -----=20
>>>From: "The Rev. Fr. Johann W. Vanderbijl III" <cranmer@...>
>>>To: <faithandlife@...>
>>>Sent: Friday, January 27, 2006 5:14 PM
>>>Subject: [FaithandLife] Re: Disturbing Site
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>Do you all know about this site?
>>>>
>>>>http://www.no-way-apa.net/
>>>>
>>>>Why are people doing this sort of thing? Do they really think this =
>>>>
>>>>
>>is
>>
>>
>>>>even vaguely Christian? What about the Matthew 18 principle and many
>>>>other commands to deal with differences privately and in a Christian
>>>>manner?
>>>>
>>>>J.+
>>>>
>>>>The Rev. Fr. Johann W. Vanderbijl III, Rector
>>>>The Anglican Church of St. George the Martyr, R.E.
>>>>427 Batesville Road
>>>>Simpsonville, SC 29681
>>>>cranmer@...
>>>>www.stgeorge-re.org
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>--
>>>>To unsubscribe, send ANY message to:
>>>>faithandlife-unsubscribe@...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>--
>>>To unsubscribe, send ANY message to:
>>>faithandlife-unsubscribe@...
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>--
>>To unsubscribe, send ANY message to: =
>>faithandlife-unsubscribe@...
>>
>>--
>>To unsubscribe, send ANY message to: =
>>faithandlife-unsubscribe@...
>>
>>--
>>To unsubscribe, send ANY message to: =
>>faithandlife-unsubscribe@...
>>
>>------------------------------
>>
>>Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 16:53:47 EST
>>To: faithandlife@...
>>From: GMSpencer@...
>>Subject: Re: [FaithandLife] RSVP:Medjugorje- a rebuttal
>>Message-ID: <5b.793b3f5b.310bf06b@...>
>>
>>--part1_5b.793b3f5b.310bf06b_boundary
>>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
>>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>>
>>In a message dated 1/26/06 8:41:31 PM, gdvw@... writes:
>>
>>
>>
>>>but who can deny that God's
>>>Mother can do what she will where she will and how she will.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>True, as long as we keep in mind her own fiat: "Let it be unto me
>>according
>>to thy word." That's pretty close to "not my will, but thine be done."
>>Also
>>pretty close to the Baptist: "he must increase, I must decrease."
>>gms+
>>
>>--
>>To unsubscribe, send ANY message to:
>>faithandlife-unsubscribe@...
>>
>>------------------------------
>>
>>Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 20:03:14 -0700
>>To: <faithandlife@...>
>>From: "John S. Longcamp" <jlongcamp@...>
>>Subject: Invocation of the Saints
>>Message-ID: <02a201c623b7$62608d80$849fe404@John>
>>
>>------=_NextPart_000_029F_01C6237C.B4FDDA10
>>Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1"
>>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>>
>>Brothers+
>>
>>Thank you for your overwhelming response to my question (Can the saints =
>>"hear" us when we ask them to intercede for us? And I emphasized that I =
>>had no problem with the concept of their praying for us, just whether we =
>>can actually ask them. I also asked for what indication we have been =
>>given that they can "hear" our request.)
>>
>>Although none of you could give a definite answer as to "what indication =
>>we have been given that they can "hear" our request", you were most =
>>helpful. In particular I appreciate Mark+'s answer:=20
>>
>>"I look at it this way. I don't know for certain that my prayers are =
>>heard by the saints or even if they want particularly to hear me blither =
>>on, wake them from their heavenly rest, and ruin their heavenly study of =
>>Anglicanism. But as they are my company I feel rather rude ignoring =
>>them...after all, how can they and I grow deeper in our shared love of =
>>Christ without even a passing nod?" That is honest and does not offend =
>>Scripture or Tradition, nor Reason, for that matter. Thanks!
>>
>>Charles+, as usual, your comments are solid, sensible, and credible. =
>>While you did not offer "proof", you help a lot when you write: "The =
>>writer of Hebrews says we are surrounded by the "great cloud of martyrs =
>>(witnesses) as if in an arena. I may be pressing too hard here, but it =
>>seems to me the witnesses are interested in those who are still running =
>>the race. Since God ". . .is not God of the dead, but of the living, =
>>for all live to him" (Luke 20:38) and since the prayers of the saints =
>>are pictured in Revelation 5 as being presented eternally to God (Rev =
>>5:8) I wonder if those prayers aren't for those still in the race on =
>>earth since the church triumphant is pictured in Revelation as already =
>>joining the angels and archangels in worship of God.
>>
>>"In Revelation 6 the souls under the altar cry out for vindication. It =
>>seems to me that the church under persecution had the sense that the =
>>earthly altar and the heavenly altar were joined, and that the saints =
>>who had joined the church triumphant were aware of the prayers coming up =
>>from the earthly altar." I hear you saying that whether or not the =
>>saints her our specific requests for their intervention, they are aware =
>>of our needs and are interceding. That is great with me.
>>
>>Now, to answer your questions to me" Charles+ and Mike+, the weather =
>>here is fine! My slowness in responding to all of your kind responses =
>>is in part due to the great sunny day, temp in the 20s, that made me go =
>>skiing at Breckenridge. (Also, I receive FaithandLife in the Digest =
>>form.) The sun at 9,000+ feet (+ here means "plus" and does not indicate =
>>Holy Orders) is so warm that I very comfortably ate lunch outdoors =
>>without a coat. We have had abundant snow this year. While the media =
>>in Cincinnati often referred to snow as White Death, here it is called =
>>White Gold! Not only does our great snowfall look beautiful and make =
>>for great skiing, it will provide much needed water this summer, =
>>benefiting not only us locals and the Front Range in Colorado, but also =
>>all living along the Colorado River.
>>
>>John+
>>(Longcamp, Dillon, CO)
>>--
>>To unsubscribe, send ANY message to:
>>faithandlife-unsubscribe@...
>>
>>------------------------------
>>
>>Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2006 18:53:41 -0500
>>To: <faithandlife@...>
>>From: "Frank Warren" <warren-sa@...>
>>Subject: Re: [FaithandLife] Invocation of the Saints
>>Message-ID: <BAY103-DAV3C127EC82F651D168E61CE7170@...>
>>
>>------=_NextPart_000_0528_01C6243C.282E79D0
>>Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1"
>>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>>
>>Breckenridge is a grand place to be!!
>>
>>Frank
>> ----- Original Message -----=20
>> From: John S. Longcamp<mailto:jlongcamp@...>=20
>> To: faithandlife@...<mailto:faithandlife@...>=20
>> Sent: Friday, January 27, 2006 10:03 PM
>> Subject: [FaithandLife] Invocation of the Saints
>>
>> Brothers+
>>
>> Thank you for your overwhelming response to my question (Can the =
>>saints "hear" us when we ask them to intercede for us? And I emphasized =
>>that I had no problem with the concept of their praying for us, just =
>>whether we can actually ask them. I also asked for what indication we =
>>have been given that they can "hear" our request.)
>>
>> Although none of you could give a definite answer as to "what =
>>indication we have been given that they can "hear" our request", you =
>>were most helpful. In particular I appreciate Mark+'s answer:=20
>>
>> "I look at it this way. I don't know for certain that my prayers are =
>>heard by the saints or even if they want particularly to hear me blither =
>>on, wake them from their heavenly rest, and ruin their heavenly study of =
>>Anglicanism. But as they are my company I feel rather rude ignoring =
>>them...after all, how can they and I grow deeper in our shared love of =
>>Christ without even a passing nod?" That is honest and does not offend =
>>Scripture or Tradition, nor Reason, for that matter. Thanks!
>>
>> Charles+, as usual, your comments are solid, sensible, and credible. =
>>While you did not offer "proof", you help a lot when you write: "The =
>>writer of Hebrews says we are surrounded by the "great cloud of martyrs =
>>(witnesses) as if in an arena. I may be pressing too hard here, but it =
>>seems to me the witnesses are interested in those who are still running =
>>the race. Since God ". . .is not God of the dead, but of the living, =
>>for all live to him" (Luke 20:38) and since the prayers of the saints =
>>are pictured in Revelation 5 as being presented eternally to God (Rev =
>>5:8) I wonder if those prayers aren't for those still in the race on =
>>earth since the church triumphant is pictured in Revelation as already =
>>joining the angels and archangels in worship of God.
>>
>> "In Revelation 6 the souls under the altar cry out for vindication. =
>>It seems to me that the church under persecution had the sense that the =
>>earthly altar and the heavenly altar were joined, and that the saints =
>>who had joined the church triumphant were aware of the prayers coming up =
>>from the earthly altar." I hear you saying that whether or not the =
>>saints her our specific requests for their intervention, they are aware =
>>of our needs and are interceding. That is great with me.
>>
>> Now, to answer your questions to me" Charles+ and Mike+, the weather =
>>here is fine! My slowness in responding to all of your kind responses =
>>is in part due to the great sunny day, temp in the 20s, that made me go =
>>skiing at Breckenridge. (Also, I receive FaithandLife in the Digest =
>>form.) The sun at 9,000+ feet (+ here means "plus" and does not indicate =
>>Holy Orders) is so warm that I very comfortably ate lunch outdoors =
>>without a coat. We have had abundant snow this year. While the media =
>>in Cincinnati often referred to snow as White Death, here it is called =
>>White Gold! Not only does our great snowfall look beautiful and make =
>>for great skiing, it will provide much needed water this summer, =
>>benefiting not only us locals and the Front Range in Colorado, but also =
>>all living along the Colorado River.
>>
>> John+
>> (Longcamp, Dillon, CO)
>> --
>> To unsubscribe, send ANY message to: =
>>faithandlife-unsubscribe@...<mailto:faithandlife-unsubscribe@as=
>>sociate.com>
>>
>>--
>>To unsubscribe, send ANY message to:
>>faithandlife-unsubscribe@...
>>
>>------------------------------
>>
>>Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2006 18:55:19 EST
>>To: faithandlife@...
>>From: GMSpencer@...
>>Subject: Re: [FaithandLife] Invocation of the Saints
>>Message-ID: <1da.4bd6afc3.310d5e67@...>
>>
>>--part1_1da.4bd6afc3.310d5e67_boundary
>>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
>>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>>
>>Hello Frank! How is everyone doing?
>>Glenn+
>>
>>--
>>To unsubscribe, send ANY message to:
>>faithandlife-unsubscribe@...
>>
>>------------------------------
>>
>>Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2006 19:04:58 -0500
>>To: <faithandlife@...>
>>From: "Frank Warren" <warren-sa@...>
>>Subject: Re: [FaithandLife] Invocation of the Saints
>>Message-ID: <BAY103-DAV15D08597DE4803E275C011E7160@...>
>>
>>------=_NextPart_000_054F_01C6243D.BB909EA0
>>Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1"
>>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>>
>>Thanks, Glenn. Everyone is doing fine! Holly improves day by day. =
>>(Oh, to be young again.)=20
>>
>>Just got home from the NC Democratic Party meeting in Raleigh. What =
>>fun!
>>
>>Wish we could enjoy the brisk weather in Breckenridge, Colorado. =
>>Sandra and I were there a few years ago. =20
>>
>>Also, I like the "Broad Church" definition from the Bishop of Gibraltar. =
>> Seems we have somewhat the same situation with APA and REC.
>>
>>How's things in Charlottesville? Marks+ take on invocation of the =
>>saints suits me fine.
>>
>>Frank
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----=20
>> From: GMSpencer@...<mailto:GMSpencer@...>=20
>> To: faithandlife@...<mailto:faithandlife@...>=20
>> Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2006 6:55 PM
>> Subject: Re: [FaithandLife] Invocation of the Saints
>>
>> Hello Frank! How is everyone doing?
>> Glenn+
>>
>> --
>> To unsubscribe, send ANY message to: =
>>faithandlife-unsubscribe@...<mailto:faithandlife-unsubscribe@as=
>>sociate.com>
>>
>>--
>>To unsubscribe, send ANY message to:
>>faithandlife-unsubscribe@...
>>
>>------------------------------
>>
>>Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2006 19:11:00 EST
>>To: faithandlife@...
>>From: GMSpencer@...
>>Subject: Re: [FaithandLife] Invocation of the Saints
>>Message-ID: <1ac.472f2d92.310d6214@...>
>>
>>--part1_1ac.472f2d92.310d6214_boundary
>>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
>>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>>
>>In a message dated 1/28/06 7:05:01 PM, warren-sa@... writes:
>>
>>
>>
>>>(Oh, to be young again.)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>I know what you mean!
>>Glenn+
>>
>>--
>>To unsubscribe, send ANY message to:
>>faithandlife-unsubscribe@...
>>
>>------------------------------
>>
>>Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2006 19:26:27 EST
>>To: faithandlife@...
>>From: GMSpencer@...
>>Subject: Re: [FaithandLife] Invocation of the Saints
>>Message-ID: <263.4cb32f0.310d65b3@...>
>>
>>--part1_263.4cb32f0.310d65b3_boundary
>>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
>>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>>
>>In a message dated 1/28/06 7:05:01 PM, warren-sa@... writes:
>>
>>
>>
>>>Marks+ take on invocation of the saints suits me fine.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>I agree. Take a look at hymn 397:
>>
>>Let saints on earth in concert sing
>>with those who work is done;
>>For all the servants of our King
>>In heaven and earth are one.
>>
>>One family we dwell in him,
>>One Church, above, beneath,
>>Though now divided by the stream,
>>The narrow stream of death.
>>
>>One army of the living God,
>>To his command we bow;
>>Part of the host have crossed the flood,
>>And part are crossing now.
>>
>>E'en now by faith we join our hands
>>With those that went before,
>>And greet the ever-living bands
>>On the eternal shore.
>>
>>Jesus, be thou our constant Guide;
>>then, when the word is giv'n,
>>Bid Jordon's narrow stream divide,
>>And bring us safe to heav'n. Amen.
>>
>>--
>>To unsubscribe, send ANY message to:
>>faithandlife-unsubscribe@...
>>
>>------------------------------
>>
>>Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2006 15:51:29 -0500
>>To: <jonesstbphl@...>, <Neopuritandoc@...>,"James Gordon Anderson"
>><gordon@...>,"gregory luther" <gregory_luther@...>,
>><jefflundy@...>,"Minshall Michael"
>><minshall_michael@...>,"Linda Burns" <Burnslk50@...>,"Mother Mary
>>Joanna" <siglermother@...>,"Richard Baskwill"
>><rbaskwil@...>,<faithandlife@...>
>>From: "Father Chandler Holder Jones" <fatherchad@...>
>>Subject: The Dangers of Unbalancing Anglicanism
>>Message-ID: <0c5501c6244c$a0fb8370$f4e20843@Theotokos>
>>
>>------=_NextPart_000_0C4F_01C62422.B43E7D40
>>Content-Type:
>>multipart/alternative;boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0C50_01C62422.B43E7D40"
>>
>>------=_NextPart_001_0C50_01C62422.B43E7D40
>>Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1"
>>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>>
>> The dangers of unbalancing the 'broad church' of Anglicanism
>> Credo by Geoffrey Rowell
>> =20
>> =20
>> =20
>> A FEW weeks ago a European diplomat asked me to explain what =
>>was meant by saying that the Church of England was "a broad church". As =
>>Anglican travellers know all too well, it is quite difficult to explain =
>>the identity of Anglicanism to many Catholic, Orthodox and Protestant =
>>Christians with no experience of the Church of England. It is, we say, =
>>both Catholic and reformed, a Church that experienced the Reformation of =
>>the 16th century, yet was careful to maintain the historic threefold =
>>apostolic ministry of bishop, priest and deacon; a Church that in its =
>>orders of morning and evening prayer (matins and evensong) creatively =
>>continued the pattern of the old monastic daily offices, but adapted for =
>>congregations; and which retained not only the sacraments, but =
>>sacramental signs like the ring in marriage and the sign of the cross in =
>>baptism.=20
>> If there was concern for reformation, there was also concern =
>>for continuity, and it was the faith and order of the early centuries of =
>>the Church that were looked to as the benchmark of the English =
>>Reformation. Later medieval patterns of worship and practice were tested =
>>against the practice of the undivided church of east and west and early =
>>apologists for the Church of England emphasised that the English =
>>Reformation was a reformation by tradition.=20
>>
>> =20
>> =20
>> As the genius of the Church of England grew and developed =
>>within the broad structure of its "reformed Catholicism" there was room =
>>for those with different theological emphases. So the Church of England =
>>accommodated groups with differing expressions of worship and different =
>>theologies, often co-existing happily, sometimes fighting battles to =
>>push at the boundaries.=20
>>
>> There were those, like the great 19th-century theologian, F. =
>>D. Maurice, who were critical of belonging to a party in the Church =
>>because parties were partial and ended by being sectarian. Maurice saw =
>>the Church of England as needing the missionary zeal of the evangelical, =
>>the sacramental worship and sense of order of the Catholic, and the =
>>liberal concern for critical dialogue with contemporary culture. But all =
>>were held within the structure of the reformed catholicism of the Church =
>>of England, in a balance that has been the genius of Anglicanism.=20
>>
>> At the present time there is a danger of unbalancing the =
>>Church of England, because of debates that touch profoundly the =
>>over-arching structure of the Church. A synod that still bears too many =
>>of the marks of a parliamentary system, and which is inclined to believe =
>>that the church is a democracy, is vulnerable to ecclesiastical party =
>>pressures and lobbying.=20
>>
>> There is a need for the kind of consensus decision-making =
>>that is characteristic of both Jesuits and Quakers, and which has =
>>recently been adopted by the World Council of Churches in order to =
>>ensure that the voice of the Orthodox Churches is not swamped by larger =
>>majorities from the Protestant world. The ascendancy of evangelicalism, =
>>with its personal piety and subjective spirituality (of which =
>>contemporary concerns for "authenticity" are a secular mirror image) can =
>>lead to a very different understanding of the Church than that of =
>>classical Anglicanism. Order and ministry can seem to be convenient =
>>arrangements rather than something which is part of that which is given =
>>and handed on, and is an integral part of the claim of the church to =
>>teach and embody a faith not grounded in human invention but rooted in =
>>God's self revelation in Jesus Christ, who is the founder and lord of =
>>the Church.=20
>>
>> In the debates about women bishops in the Church of England =
>>much will doubtless be heard about inclusivity, but inclusivity is not, =
>>however, identical with the claim of the Church to be catholic. In this =
>>debate there are underlying questions about the symbolic significance of =
>>male and female as both made in the image of God, and yet created in a =
>>sexually differentiated pattern. There are further questions about the =
>>nature of the Church, the processes of decision-making, the role of the =
>>bishop as a focus of unity and the need for working at the difficult =
>>issues with those historic Churches with which the Church of England =
>>claims to share the apostolic order of the threefold ministry.=20
>>
>> The Church of England may be, as I tried to explain to the =
>>ambassador, a "broad church", but it is, and always has been, a broad =
>>church within a given structure of order and ministry. Its unbalancing =
>>by the marginalising of those within it with the deepest concern for =
>>catholic order and sacramental ministry would severely damage its =
>>identity and its witness. The Week of Prayer for Christian Unity ended =
>>last week. We need to pray for that unity with deep longing - and act =
>>accordingly.=20
>>
>> The Right Rev Dr Geoffrey Rowell is Bishop of Gibraltar in =
>>Europe
>> =20
>> =20
>>
>>--
>>To unsubscribe, send ANY message to:
>>faithandlife-unsubscribe@...
>>
>>------=_NextPart_001_0C50_01C62422.B43E7D40
>>
>>------------------------------
>>
>>Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2006 21:55:05 GMT
>>To: faithandlife@...
>>From: "prolife@..." <prolife@...>
>>Subject: Re: [FaithandLife] The Dangers of Unbalancing Anglicanism
>>Message-Id: <20060128.135527.11238.169510@...>
>>
>>----__JWM__J41c6.167eS.2781M
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>>
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>>
>>Chad+,
>>I did not get a message or an attachment.
>>Ray+
>>
>>Please note: message attached
>>
>>--
>>To unsubscribe, send ANY message to:
>>faithandlife-unsubscribe@...
>>
>>----__JWM__J446b.794bS.15fbM
>>
>>----__JWM__J41c6.167eS.2781M
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>>
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>>Message-ID: <0c5501c6244c$a0fb8370$f4e20843@Theotokos>
>>From: "Father Chandler Holder Jones" <fatherchad@...>
>>To: <jonesstbphl@...>, <Neopuritandoc@...>,"James Gordon Anderson"
>><gordon@...>,"gregory luther" <gregory_luther@...>,
>><jefflundy@...>,"Minshall Michael"
>><minshall_michael@...>,"Linda Burns" <Burnslk50@...>,"Mother Mary
>>Joanna" <siglermother@...>,"Richard Baskwill"
>><rbaskwil@...>,<faithandlife@...>
>>Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2006 15:51:29 -0500
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>>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>>
>> The dangers of unbalancing the 'broad church' of
>> AnglicanismCredo by Geoffrey Rowell=20=20=20A FEW weeks ago a European
>> diplomat asked me to explain what =
>>was meant by saying that the Church of England was "a broad church". As =
>>Anglican travellers know all too well, it is quite difficult to explain =
>>the identity of Anglicanism to many Catholic, Orthodox and Protestant =
>>Christians with no experience of the Church of England. It is, we say, =
>>both Catholic and reformed, a Church that experienced the Reformation of =
>>the 16th century, yet was careful to maintain the historic threefold =
>>apostolic ministry of bishop, priest and deacon; a Church that in its =
>>orders of morning and evening prayer (matins and evensong) creatively =
>>continued the pattern of the old monastic daily offices, but adapted for =
>>congregations; and which retained not only the sacraments, but =
>>sacramental signs like the ring in marriage and the sign of the cross in =
>>baptism.=20If there was concern for reformation, there was also concern =
>>for continuity, and it was the faith and order of the early centuries of =
>>the Church that were looked to as the benchmark of the English =
>>Reformation. Later medieval patterns of worship and practice were tested =
>>against the practice of the undivided church of east and west and early =
>>apologists for the Church of England emphasised that the English =
>>Reformation was a reformation by tradition.=20
>>
>> =20=20As the genius of the Church of England grew and
>> developed =
>>within the broad structure of its "reformed Catholicism" there was room =
>>for those with different theological emphases. So the Church of England =
>>accommodated groups with differing expressions of worship and different =
>>theologies, often co-existing happily, sometimes fighting battles to =
>>push at the boundaries.=20
>>
>> There were those, like the great 19th-century theologian, F. =
>>D. Maurice, who were critical of belonging to a party in the Church =
>>because parties were partial and ended by being sectarian. Maurice saw =
>>the Church of England as needing the missionary zeal of the evangelical, =
>>the sacramental worship and sense of order of the Catholic, and the =
>>liberal concern for critical dialogue with contemporary culture. But all =
>>were held within the structure of the reformed catholicism of the Church =
>>of England, in a balance that has been the genius of Anglicanism.=20
>>
>> At the present time there is a danger of unbalancing the =
>>Church of England, because of debates that touch profoundly the =
>>over-arching structure of the Church. A synod that still bears too many =
>>of the marks of a parliamentary system, and which is inclined to believe =
>>that the church is a democracy, is vulnerable to ecclesiastical party =
>>pressures and lobbying.=20
>>
>> There is a need for the kind of consensus decision-making =
>>that is characteristic of both Jesuits and Quakers, and which has =
>>recently been adopted by the World Council of Churches in order to =
>>ensure that the voice of the Orthodox Churches is not swamped by larger =
>>majorities from the Protestant world. The ascendancy of evangelicalism, =
>>with its personal piety and subjective spirituality (of which =
>>contemporary concerns for "authenticity" are a secular mirror image) can =
>>lead to a very different understanding of the Church than that of =
>>classical Anglicanism. Order and ministry can seem to be convenient =
>>arrangements rather than something which is part of that which is given =
>>and handed on, and is an integral part of the claim of the church to =
>>teach and embody a faith not grounded in human invention but rooted in =
>>God's self revelation in Jesus Christ, who is the founder and lord of =
>>the Church.=20
>>
>> In the debates about women bishops in the Church of England =
>>much will doubtless be heard about inclusivity, but inclusivity is not, =
>>however, identical with the claim of the Church to be catholic. In this =
>>debate there are underlying questions about the symbolic significance of =
>>male and female as both made in the image of God, and yet created in a =
>>sexually differentiated pattern. There are further questions about the =
>>nature of the Church, the processes of decision-making, the role of the =
>>bishop as a focus of unity and the need for working at the difficult =
>>issues with those historic Churches with which the Church of England =
>>claims to share the apostolic order of the threefold ministry.=20
>>
>> The Church of England may be, as I tried to explain to the =
>>ambassador, a "broad church", but it is, and always has been, a broad =
>>church within a given structure of order and ministry. Its unbalancing =
>>by the marginalising of those within it with the deepest concern for =
>>catholic order and sacramental ministry would severely damage its =
>>identity and its witness. The Week of Prayer for Christian Unity ended =
>>last week. We need to pray for that unity with deep longing - and act =
>>accordingly.=20
>>
>> The Right Rev Dr Geoffrey Rowell is Bishop of Gibraltar in =
>>Europe=20=20
>>
>>--
>>To unsubscribe, send ANY message to:
>>faithandlife-unsubscribe@...
>>
>>------=_NextPart_001_0C50_01C62422.B43E7D40
>>
>>------=_NextPart_001_0C50_01C62422.B43E7D40--
>>------=_NextPart_000_0C4F_01C62422.B43E7D40--
>>
>>------------------------------
>>
>>Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2006 22:22:02 -0000
>>To: <faithandlife@...>
>>From: "JEFFREY STEEL" <jeffrey.steel1@...>
>>Subject: Re: [FaithandLife] The Dangers of Unbalancing Anglicanism
>>Message-ID: <000f01c62459$43f4e510$0301a8c0@Anglican>
>>
>>Brethren+
>>
>>It is 10.16 pm and I just returned from London to Durham in the NE having
>>attended a FiF rally that was excellent. Watch the FiF UK news for updates
>>on the speeches and all the happenings. It was very encouraging! There
>>really is a desire to have a future in the English Catholic Tradition
>>without having to make the move to Rome. Please pray for the C of E as
>>she
>>sorts out the plans of the future as she seeks a way for all parties
>>involved to be cared for in the love of Christ.
>>
>>with all the very best wishes,
>>
>>js
>>----- Original Message -----
>>
>>From: "Father Chandler Holder Jones" <fatherchad@...>
>>To: <jonesstbphl@...>; <Neopuritandoc@...>; "James Gordon Anderson"
>><gordon@...>; "gregory luther" <gregory_luther@...>;
>><jefflundy@...>; "Minshall Michael" <minshall_michael@...>;
>>"Linda Burns" <Burnslk50@...>; "Mother Mary Joanna"
>><siglermother@...>; "Richard Baskwill" <rbaskwil@...>;
>><faithandlife@...>
>>Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2006 8:51 PM
>>Subject: [FaithandLife] The Dangers of Unbalancing Anglicanism
>>
>> The dangers of unbalancing the 'broad church' of Anglicanism
>> Credo by Geoffrey Rowell
>>
>> A FEW weeks ago a European diplomat asked me to explain what
>> was
>>meant by saying that the Church of England was "a broad church". As
>>Anglican
>>travellers know all too well, it is quite difficult to explain the
>>identity
>>of Anglicanism to many Catholic, Orthodox and Protestant Christians with
>>no
>>experience of the Church of England. It is, we say, both Catholic and
>>reformed, a Church that experienced the Reformation of the 16th century,
>>yet
>>was careful to maintain the historic threefold apostolic ministry of
>>bishop,
>>priest and deacon; a Church that in its orders of morning and evening
>>prayer
>>(matins and evensong) creatively continued the pattern of the old monastic
>>daily offices, but adapted for congregations; and which retained not only
>>the sacraments, but sacramental signs like the ring in marriage and the
>>sign
>>of the cross in baptism.
>> If there was concern for reformation, there was also concern
>> for
>>continuity, and it was the faith and order of the early centuries of the
>>Church that were looked to as the benchmark of the English Reformation.
>>Later medieval patterns of worship and practice were tested against the
>>practice of the undivided church of east and west and early apologists for
>>the Church of England emphasised that the English Reformation was a
>>reformation by tradition.
>>
>> As the genius of the Church of England grew and developed
>> within
>>the broad structure of its "reformed Catholicism" there was room for those
>>with different theological emphases. So the Church of England accommodated
>>groups with differing expressions of worship and different theologies,
>>often
>>co-existing happily, sometimes fighting battles to push at the boundaries.
>>
>> There were those, like the great 19th-century theologian, F.
>> D.
>>Maurice, who were critical of belonging to a party in the Church because
>>parties were partial and ended by being sectarian. Maurice saw the Church
>>of
>>England as needing the missionary zeal of the evangelical, the sacramental
>>worship and sense of order of the Catholic, and the liberal concern for
>>critical dialogue with contemporary culture. But all were held within the
>>structure of the reformed catholicism of the Church of England, in a
>>balance
>>that has been the genius of Anglicanism.
>>
>> At the present time there is a danger of unbalancing the
>> Church
>>of England, because of debates that touch profoundly the over-arching
>>structure of the Church. A synod that still bears too many of the marks of
>>a
>>parliamentary system, and which is inclined to believe that the church is
>>a
>>democracy, is vulnerable to ecclesiastical party pressures and lobbying.
>>
>> There is a need for the kind of consensus decision-making that
>>is characteristic of both Jesuits and Quakers, and which has recently been
>>adopted by the World Council of Churches in order to ensure that the voice
>>of the Orthodox Churches is not swamped by larger majorities from the
>>Protestant world. The ascendancy of evangelicalism, with its personal
>>piety
>>and subjective spirituality (of which contemporary concerns for
>>"authenticity" are a secular mirror image) can lead to a very different
>>understanding of the Church than that of classical Anglicanism. Order and
>>ministry can seem to be convenient arrangements rather than something
>>which
>>is part of that which is given and handed on, and is an integral part of
>>the
>>claim of the church to teach and embody a faith not grounded in human
>>invention but rooted in God's self revelation in Jesus Christ, who is the
>>founder and lord of the Church.
>>
>> In the debates about women bishops in the Church of England
>> much
>>will doubtless be heard about inclusivity, but inclusivity is not,
>>however,
>>identical with the claim of the Church to be catholic. In this debate
>>there
>>are underlying questions about the symbolic significance of male and
>>female
>>as both made in the image of God, and yet created in a sexually
>>differentiated pattern. There are further questions about the nature of
>>the
>>Church, the processes of decision-making, the role of the bishop as a
>>focus
>>of unity and the need for working at the difficult issues with those
>>historic Churches with which the Church of England claims to share the
>>apostolic order of the threefold ministry.
>>
>> The Church of England may be, as I tried to explain to the
>>ambassador, a "broad church", but it is, and always has been, a broad
>>church
>>within a given structure of order and ministry. Its unbalancing by the
>>marginalising of those within it with the deepest concern for catholic
>>order
>>and sacramental ministry would severely damage its identity and its
>>witness.
>>The Week of Prayer for Christian Unity ended last week. We need to pray
>>for
>>that unity with deep longing - and act accordingly.
>>
>> The Right Rev Dr Geoffrey Rowell is Bishop of Gibraltar in
>>Europe
>>
>>--
>>To unsubscribe, send ANY message to:
>>faithandlife-unsubscribe@...
>>
>>------------------------------
>>
>>Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2006 18:36:32 -0500
>>To: <faithandlife@...>
>>From: "Michael Ward" <mward@...>
>>Subject: RE: [FaithandLife] The Dangers of Unbalancing Anglicanism
>>Message-ID: <C952E09E1C13F74FA9B0ACEF856928D012E108@...>
>>
>>Shouldn't you be officiating a wedding or something....
>>
>>MLW+
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Father Chandler Holder Jones [mailto:fatherchad@...]=20
>>Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2006 3:51 PM
>>To: jonesstbphl@...; Neopuritandoc@...; James Gordon Anderson;
>>gregory luther; jefflundy@...; Minshall Michael; Linda Burns;
>>Mother Mary Joanna; Richard Baskwill; faithandlife@...
>>Subject: [FaithandLife] The Dangers of Unbalancing Anglicanism
>>
>> The dangers of unbalancing the 'broad church' of Anglicanism
>> Credo by Geoffrey Rowell
>> =20
>> =20
>> =20
>> A FEW weeks ago a European diplomat asked me to explain what =
>>was
>>meant by saying that the Church of England was "a broad church". As =
>>Anglican
>>travellers know all too well, it is quite difficult to explain the =
>>identity
>>of Anglicanism to many Catholic, Orthodox and Protestant Christians with =
>>no
>>experience of the Church of England. It is, we say, both Catholic and
>>reformed, a Church that experienced the Reformation of the 16th century, =
>>yet
>>was careful to maintain the historic threefold apostolic ministry of =
>>bishop,
>>priest and deacon; a Church that in its orders of morning and evening =
>>prayer
>>(matins and evensong) creatively continued the pattern of the old =
>>monastic
>>daily offices, but adapted for congregations; and which retained not =
>>only
>>the sacraments, but sacramental signs like the ring in marriage and the =
>>sign
>>of the cross in baptism.=20
>> If there was concern for reformation, there was also concern =
>>for
>>continuity, and it was the faith and order of the early centuries of the
>>Church that were looked to as the benchmark of the English Reformation.
>>Later medieval patterns of worship and practice were tested against the
>>practice of the undivided church of east and west and early apologists =
>>for
>>the Church of England emphasised that the English Reformation was a
>>reformation by tradition.=20
>>
>> =20
>> =20
>> As the genius of the Church of England grew and developed =
>>within
>>the broad structure of its "reformed Catholicism" there was room for =
>>those
>>with different theological emphases. So the Church of England =
>>accommodated
>>groups with differing expressions of worship and different theologies, =
>>often
>>co-existing happily, sometimes fighting battles to push at the =
>>boundaries.=20
>>
>> There were those, like the great 19th-century theologian, F. =
>>D.
>>Maurice, who were critical of belonging to a party in the Church because
>>parties were partial and ended by being sectarian. Maurice saw the =
>>Church of
>>England as needing the missionary zeal of the evangelical, the =
>>sacramental
>>worship and sense of order of the Catholic, and the liberal concern for
>>critical dialogue with contemporary culture. But all were held within =
>>the
>>structure of the reformed catholicism of the Church of England, in a =
>>balance
>>that has been the genius of Anglicanism.=20
>>
>> At the present time there is a danger of unbalancing the =
>>Church
>>of England, because of debates that touch profoundly the over-arching
>>structure of the Church. A synod that still bears too many of the marks =
>>of a
>>parliamentary system, and which is inclined to believe that the church =
>>is a
>>democracy, is vulnerable to ecclesiastical party pressures and lobbying. =
>>
>> There is a need for the kind of consensus decision-making =
>>that
>>is characteristic of both Jesuits and Quakers, and which has recently =
>>been
>>adopted by the World Council of Churches in order to ensure that the =
>>voice
>>of the Orthodox Churches is not swamped by larger majorities from the
>>Protestant world. The ascendancy of evangelicalism, with its personal =
>>piety
>>and subjective spirituality (of which contemporary concerns for
>>"authenticity" are a secular mirror image) can lead to a very different
>>understanding of the Church than that of classical Anglicanism. Order =
>>and
>>ministry can seem to be convenient arrangements rather than something =
>>which
>>is part of that which is given and handed on, and is an integral part of =
>>the
>>claim of the church to teach and embody a faith not grounded in human
>>invention but rooted in God's self revelation in Jesus Christ, who is =
>>the
>>founder and lord of the Church.=20
>>
>> In the debates about women bishops in the Church of England =
>>much
>>will doubtless be heard about inclusivity, but inclusivity is not, =
>>however,
>>identical with the claim of the Church to be catholic. In this debate =
>>there
>>are underlying questions about the symbolic significance of male and =
>>female
>>as both made in the image of God, and yet created in a sexually
>>differentiated pattern. There are further questions about the nature of =
>>the
>>Church, the processes of decision-making, the role of the bishop as a =
>>focus
>>of unity and the need for working at the difficult issues with those
>>historic Churches with which the Church of England claims to share the
>>apostolic order of the threefold ministry.=20
>>
>> The Church of England may be, as I tried to explain to the
>>ambassador, a "broad church", but it is, and always has been, a broad =
>>church
>>within a given structure of order and ministry. Its unbalancing by the
>>marginalising of those within it with the deepest concern for catholic =
>>order
>>and sacramental ministry would severely damage its identity and its =
>>witness.
>>The Week of Prayer for Christian Unity ended last week. We need to pray =
>>for
>>that unity with deep longing - and act accordingly.=20
>>
>> The Right Rev Dr Geoffrey Rowell is Bishop of Gibraltar in
>>Europe
>> =20
>> =20
>>
>>--
>>To unsubscribe, send ANY message to: =
>>faithandlife-unsubscribe@...
>>
>>------------------------------
>>
>>Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2006 00:23:18 -0000
>>To: <faithandlife@...>
>>From: "JEFFREY STEEL" <jeffrey.steel1@...>
>>Subject: Re: [FaithandLife] The Dangers of Unbalancing Anglicanism
>>Message-ID: <002401c6246a$345f6c40$0301a8c0@Anglican>
>>
>>http://www.forwardinfaith.com/hope/ Let me especially encourage all of
>>you
>>to hear and listen to Bishop Martyn Jarrett's speech as he is the PEV for
>>the NE of England. Listen to this and the applause at the end!!!!! It
>>was
>>an incredible thing to be in attendance at today. Also, listen the to the
>>last song we sang before departing. Quite an interesting prayerful day!
>>
>>all the best dear brethren,
>>
>>js
>>----- Original Message -----
>>From: "JEFFREY STEEL" <jeffrey.steel1@...>
>>To: <faithandlife@...>
>>Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2006 10:22 PM
>>Subject: Re: [FaithandLife] The Dangers of Unbalancing Anglicanism
>>
>>
>>
>>>Brethren+
>>>
>>>It is 10.16 pm and I just returned from London to Durham in the NE having
>>>attended a FiF rally that was excellent. Watch the FiF UK news for
>>>updates
>>>on the speeches and all the happenings. It was very encouraging! There
>>>really is a desire to have a future in the English Catholic Tradition
>>>without having to make the move to Rome. Please pray for the C of E as
>>>she sorts out the plans of the future as she seeks a way for all parties
>>>involved to be cared for in the love of Christ.
>>>
>>>
>>>with all the very best wishes,
>>>
>>>js
>>>----- Original Message -----
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>From: "Father Chandler Holder Jones" <fatherchad@...>
>>>To: <jonesstbphl@...>; <Neopuritandoc@...>; "James Gordon
>>>Anderson"
>>><gordon@...>; "gregory luther"
>>><gregory_luther@...>;
>>><jefflundy@...>; "Minshall Michael" <minshall_michael@...>;
>>>"Linda Burns" <Burnslk50@...>; "Mother Mary Joanna"
>>><siglermother@...>; "Richard Baskwill" <rbaskwil@...>;
>>><faithandlife@...>
>>>Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2006 8:51 PM
>>>Subject: [FaithandLife] The Dangers of Unbalancing Anglicanism
>>>
>>>
>>> The dangers of unbalancing the 'broad church' of Anglicanism
>>> Credo by Geoffrey Rowell
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> A FEW weeks ago a European diplomat asked me to explain what
>>>was meant by saying that the Church of England was "a broad church". As
>>>Anglican travellers know all too well, it is quite difficult to explain
>>>the identity of Anglicanism to many Catholic, Orthodox and Protestant
>>>Christians with no experience of the Church of England. It is, we say,
>>>both Catholic and reformed, a Church that experienced the Reformation of
>>>the 16th century, yet was careful to maintain the historic threefold
>>>apostolic ministry of bishop, priest and deacon; a Church that in its
>>>orders of morning and evening prayer (matins and evensong) creatively
>>>continued the pattern of the old monastic daily offices, but adapted for
>>>congregations; and which retained not only the sacraments, but