Johann+

But in dogmatics, the distinction has traditionally been understood to be a
distinction of time from OUR perspective.  So while what you say is true, we
must still understand that the Pauline tension between the "already" and
"not yet" comes into play here.  That's the only reason that I quibble about
the terminology.

MLW+

-----Original Message-----
From: The Rev. Fr. Johann W. Vanderbijl III [mailto:cranmer@...] 
Sent: Tuesday, January 31, 2006 10:46 AM
To: faithandlife@...
Subject: Re: [FaithandLife] Saintly Intercession

Any evidence from Scripture that the church triumphant has any access to our
prayers.  They are not omniscient, nor omnipresent, and they are not here.
What confidence do I have that any saint gone before sees or hears me?

JVDB:  I prefer not to divide the Church into Militant, Expectant or 
Triumphant as it goes against the grain of our Lord's teaching that in Him 
we are all one.  Perhaps if we got away from thinking about 'us' and 'them' 
we woudl realize that we are, after all, seated together in heavenly places 
in Christ Jesus and therefore it is no longer a 'here' or 'there' equation. 
I understand that there is a theological need to distinguish between those 
who remain in the body and those who have put off the body, but ultimately 
we are and remain one in Him and therefore are not divided.  Perhaps then 
our confidence lies in the same reality - that we are all before His throne 
of mercy and grace.  Having said all of that, I remain unconvinced of the 
practice, but, as I can sort of understand the argument for it, I am not 
opposed to it.

The Rev. Fr. Johann W. Vanderbijl III, Rector
The Anglican Church of St. George the Martyr, R.E.
427 Batesville Road
Simpsonville, SC 29681
cranmer@...
www.stgeorge-re.org



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