Derrick L. Hassert wrote: > > In any case, Bicknell, while giving the pros and cons of the practice very objectively, notes that it is not part of the Common Prayer tradition of the Church of England and more a matter of private devotion and individual decision. > > Derrick > > GMSpencer@... wrote: > >That these very intelligent men seemed not to be bothered by the >question of how the blessed departed could hear prayers, is at least worth noting. >gms+ > > Ben: I found the following sources helpful: Edgar C.S. Gibson, 'The Thirty - Nine Articles of the Church of England Article 22: The history of the practice: In tracing out the growth of the custom of invoking the saints at rest, it will be well to start from the fact that the early Church undoubtedly believed that they were still engaged in interceding for those whose warfare was not yet accomplished, and very generally /*prayed to God */to be benefited by a share in the prayers of the saints. But there can also be no doubt that the early Christians did not think it right directly to ask the saints to use those intercessions, in whose efficacy she yet believed. The only wirter during the first three centuries who has been quoted in favour of direct invocation is Origne (220), and it seems almost certain that in the passage in question he is really referring, not to the saints at rest but to those still on earth. . . . It is, then, only in the latter part of the fourth century that the evidence for direct invocation really begins. The Fathers of this age who have been cited in favour of the practice are these: In the East, S. Basil the Great (370), Gregory Nizianzen (370) and Gregory Nyssen (370), Ephraem the Syrian (370) and S. Chrysostom (390). In the West, S. Ambrose (380) and S. Augustine (400). Their testimony has been carefully examined by Dean Luckock in his volume 'After Death, and the conclusion at which he arrrives is that "S. Chrysostom's contradictions are such as to invalidate his evidence, that S. Gregory Nizianzen speaks doubtfully, that S. Ambrose, in the little which he has said upon the subject, is inconsistent with himself; but that the testimony of SS. Basil, Gregory Nyssen, Ephraem, and Augustine reamains so far unshaken." Some of the passages in thes Fathers certainly appear to be nothing ore than rhetorical appeals, which can scarecely have been intended to be taken as seriously implying that the person so addressed was expected to be cognisant of the utterance. . . . Concerning the intention of others, however, there is no room for doubt; and it cannot be denied that by the time of Augustine the practice of directly invoking the saints was firmly established as /*a popular one*/, though even so there is no trace of such invocation sbeing admitted into the formal services of the Church. Rather it would appear from the language of Augustine that they were not allowed; . . . After this time it would seem that the custom grew apace. The practice having once established itself spread throughout the East and west, and became part of the system of the Church. By the eight century the invcations were introduced into the Litanes of the Church, the only public authorised service in which they have ever been prominent, except later devotions in honour of the Blessed Virgin. Nor, unhappily, did the system long remain what it had been at first, i.e. merely asking the saints to pray for us. In time the saints were often invoed as if they were the authors of benefits; and the Blessed Virgin, in particular, was addressed in language which (with every wish to be charitable) it is impossible to avoid stimatising as blasphemous and idolatrous. thsu in Bonaventura's */Crown of the Blessed Virgin, Mary/* we read: " O Empress and our most kind lady, by the authority of a mother command thy most beloved Son our Lord Jesus Christ, that he would voucsafe to lift up our minds" etc. Much more of the same character may be found in /*the Psalter of the Blessed virgin*/, attributed to the smae writer. And it cannot be doubted that in the sixteenth century the practtical system connected with the invocation of saints waws grossly supersitious. It naturally excited the indignation of our Reformers, and hence the emphatic condemnation of the "Romish doctrine" on the subject in the Article before us , and the vitorous polemic contained in the Homily "concerning Prayer" Which was issued in the reign of Elizabeth. Edgar C.S. Gibson, 'The Thirty - Nine Articles of the Church of England, Vol II. Methuen & Co. , 1896. p. 564-568. *Homily or Sermon Concerning Prayer* http://www.prayerbook.ca/library/homilies/homily3.html There are certain conditions most requisite to be found in every such a one as must be called upon; which if they be not found in him unto whom we pray, then doth our prayer avail us nothing, but is altogether in vain. The first is this, that he, to whom we make our prayers, be able to help us. The second is, that he will help us. The third is, that he be such a one as may hear our prayers. The fourth is, that he understand better than we ourselves what we lack, and how far we have need of help. If these things be to be found in any other saving only God, then may we lawfully call upon some other besides God. But what man is so gross, but he well understandeth that these things are only proper to him which is omnipotent, and knoweth all things, even the very secrets of the heart; that is to say, only and to God Alone? Whereof it followeth, that we must call neither upon Angel, nor yet upon Saint, but only and solely upon God; as Saint Paul doth write, How shall men call upon him in whom they have not believed? So that invocation or prayer may not be made without faith in him on whom we call; but that we must first believe in him, before we can make our prayer unto him. Whereupon we must only and solely pray unto God: for to say that we should believe either in Angel or Saint, or in any other living creature, were most horrible blasphemy against God and his holy word: neither ought this fancy to enter into the heart of any Christian man; because we are expressly taught, in the word of the Lord, only to repose our faith in the blessed Trinity; in whose only name we are also baptized, according to the express commandment of our Saviour Jesus Christ, in the last of Saint Matthew. But that the truth hereof may the better appear, even to them that be most simple and unlearned, let us consider what prayer is. Saint Augustine calleth it a lifting up of the mind to God; that is to say, an humble and lowly pouring out of the heart to God. Isidorus saith, that it is an affection of the heart, and not a labour of the lips. So that, by these places, true prayer doth consist not so much in the outward sound and voice of words, as in the inward groaning and crying of the heart to God. Now then, is there any Angel, any Virgin, any Patriarch or Prophet among the dead, that can understand or know the meaning of the heart? The Scripture saith, It is God that searcheth the heart and the reins, and that he only knoweth the hearts of the children of men. As for the Saints, they have so little knowledge of the secrets of the heart, that many of the ancient Fathers greatly doubt whether they know any thing at all, that is commonly done on earth. and albeit some think they do, yet Saint Augustine, a Doctor of great authority and also antiquity, hath this opinion of them; That they know no more what we do on earth, than we know what they do in heaven. For proof whereof, he allegeth the words of Isaiah the Prophet, where it is said, Abraham is ignorant of us, and Israel knoweth us not. His mind therefore is this, not that we should put any religion in worshipping of them, or praying unto them; but that we should honour them by following their virtuous and godly life. For, as he witnesseth in another place, the Martyrs, and holy men in times past, were wont after their death to be remembered and named of the Priest at Divine Service; but never to be invocated or called upon. Any why so? Because the Priest, saith he, is God's Priest, and not theirs: whereby he is bound to call upon God, and not upon them. Thus you see, that the authority both of the Scripture, and also of Augustine, doth not permit, that we should pray unto them. Oh that all men would studiously read and search the Scriptures! Then should they not be drowned in ignorance, but should easily perceive the truth, as well of this point of doctrine, as of all the rest. For there doth the Holy Ghost plainly teach us, that Christ is our only Mediator and Intercessor with God, and that we must seek and run to no other. If any man sinneth, saith Saint John, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; and he is the propitiation for our sins. Saint Paul also saith, There is one God, and one Mediator between God and rnan, even the man Jesus Christ. Whereunto agreeth the testimony of our Saviour himself, witnessing that no man cometh to the Father, but only by him, who is the way, the truth, the life, yea, and the only door whereby we must enter into the kingdom of heaven, because God is pleased in no other but in him. For which cause also he crieth, and calleth unto us, that we should come unto him, saying, Come unto me all ye that labour and be heavy laden, and I shall refresh you. Would Christ have us so necessarily come unto him? and shall we most unthankfully leave him, and run unto other? This is even that which God so greatly complaineth of by his Prophet Jeremy, saying, My people have committed two great offences; they have forsaken me, the fountain of the waters of life, and have digged to themselves broken pits, that can hold no water. Is not that man, think you, unwise, that will run for water to a little brook, when he may as well go to the head spring? Even so may his wisdom be justly suspected, that will flee unto Saints in time of necessity, when he may boldly and without fear declare his grief, and direct his prayer, unto the Lord himself. If God were strange, or dangerous to be talked withal, then might we justly draw back, and see to some other. But the Lord is nigh unto all them that call upon him in faith and truth; and the prayer of the humble and meek hath always pleased him. What if we be sinners, shall we not therefore pray unto God? Or shall we despair to obtain any thing at his hands? Why did Christ then teach us to ask forgiveness of our sins, saying, And forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive them that trespass against us? Shall we think that the saints are more merciful in hearing sinners than God? David saith, that the Lord is full of compassion and mercy, slow to anger, and of great kindness. Saint Paul saith, that he is rich in mercy toward all them that call upon him. And he himself by the mouth of his Prophet Isaiah saith, For a little while have I forsaken thee, but with great compassion will I gather thee: for a moment in mine anger I have hid my face from thee, but with everlasting mercy have I had compassion upon thee. Therefore the sins of any man ought not to withhold him from praying unto the Lord his God. But, if he be truly penitent and stedfast in faith, let him assure himself that the Lord will be merciful unto him, and hear his prayers. O but I dare not, will some man say, trouble God at all times with my prayers; we see that in Kings' houses, and courts of Princes, men cannot be admitted, unless they first use the help and means of some special Nobleman, to come to the speech of the King, and to obtain the thing that they would have. To this reason doth Saint Ambrose answer very well, writing upon the first chapter to the Romans. Therefore, saith he, we use to go unto the King by Officers and Noblemen, because the King is a mortal man, and knoweth not to whom he may commit the government of the commonwealth. But to have God our friend, from whom nothing is hid, we need not any helper, that should further us with his good word, but only a devout and godly mind. And if it be so, that we need one to entreat for us, why may we not content ourselves with that one Mediator, which is at the right hand of god the Father, and there liveth for ever to make intercession for us? As the blood of Christ did redeem us on the cross, and cleanse us from our sins; even so it is now able to save all them that come unto God by it. For Christ, sitting in heaven, hath an everlasting priesthood, and always prayeth to his Father for them that be penitent, obtaining by virtue of his wounds, which are evermore in the sight of God, not only perfect remission of our sins, but also all other necessaries that we lack in this world; so that this only Mediator is sufficient in heaven, and needeth no others to help him. Why then do we pray for one another in this life? some man perchance will here demand. Forsooth we are willed so to do, by the express commandment both of Christ and his disciples; to declare therein, as well the faith that we have in Christ towards God, as also the mutual charity that we bear one towards another, in that we pity our brother's case, and make our humble petition to God for him. But that we should pray unto saints, neither have we any commandment in all Scripture, not yet example which we may safely follow. So that, being done without authority of God's word, it lacketh the ground of faith, and therefore cannot be acceptable before God. For whatsoever is not of faith is sin. And the Apostle saith, that faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Yet thou wilt object further, that the saints in heaven do pray for us, and that their prayer proceedeth of an earnest charity, that they have towards their brethren on earth. Whereto it may be well answered, first that no man knoweth whether they do pray for us, or no. And if any will go about to prove it by the nature of charity, concluding, that, because they did pray for men on earth, therefore they do much more the same now in heaven; then may it be said by the same reason, that as oft as we do weep on earth, they do also weep in heaven, because while they lived in this world, it is most certain and sure they did so. And for that place which is written in the Apocalypse, namely, that the angel did offer up the prayers of the saints upon the golden altar, it is properly meant, and ought properly to be understood, of those saints that are yet living on earth, and not of them that are dead; otherwise what need were it that the Angel should offer up their prayers, being now in heaven before the face of Almighty God? But admit the saints do pray for us, yet do we not know how, whether specially for them which call upon them, or else generally for all men, wishing well to every man alike. If they pray specially for them which call upon them, then it is like they hear our prayers, and also know our heart's desire. Which thing to be false, it is already proved, both by the Scriptures, and also by the authority of Augustine. Let us not, therefore, put our trust or confidence in the Saints or Martyrs that be dead. Let us not call upon them, nor desire help at their hands: but let us always lift up our hearts to God, in the name of his dear Son Christ, for whose sake, as God hath promised to hear our prayer, so he will truly perform it. Invocation is a thing proper unto God; which if we attribute unto the saints, it soundeth to their reproach, neither can they well bear it at our hands. When Paul had healed a certain lame man, which was impotent in his feet, at Lystra, the people would have done sacrifice to him and Barnabas; who rending their clothes refused it, and exhorted them to worship the true God. Likewise in the Revelation, when Saint John fell before the Angel's feet to worship him, the Angel would not permit him to do it, but commanded him that he should worship God. Which examples declare unto us, that the Saints and Angels in heaven will not have us to do any honour unto them, that is due and proper unto God. He only is our Father; he only is omnipotent; he only knoweth and understandeth all things; he only can help us at all times, and in all places: He suffereth the sun to shine upon the good and the bad; he feedeth the young ravens that cry unto him; he saveth both man and beast; he will not that any one hair of our head shall perish, but is always ready to help and preserve all them that put their trust in him; according as he hath promised, saying, Before they call, I will answer, and whilst they speak I will hear. Let us not, therefore any thing mistrust his goodness; let us not fear to come before the throne of his mercy; let us not seek the aid and help of saints; but let us come boldly ourselves, nothing doubting but God for Christ's sake, in whom he is well pleased, will hear us without a spokesman, and accomplish our desire in all such things as shall be agreeable to his most holy will. So saith Chrysostom, an ancient Doctor of the church; and so must we stedfastly believe, not because he saith it, but much more because it is the doctrine of our Saviour Christ himself; who hath promised, that, if we pray to the Father in his name, we shall certainly be heard, both to the relief of our necessities, and also to the salvation of our souls; which he hath purchased unto us, not with gold or silver, but with his precious blood shed once for all upon the cross. To him, therefore, with the Father and the Holy Ghost, three persons and one God, be all honour, praise, and glory, for ever and ever. Amen. http://www.prayerbook.ca/library/homilies/homily3.html -- Ben+ -- "Is it true? Is it kind to repeat it? Is it necessary to repeat it?" ===== The Rev. Benjamin Bernier benbernier@... http://www.providencerec.org/ Providence Reformed Episcopal Church; Corpus Christi, TX ===== -- To unsubscribe, send ANY message to: faithandlife-unsubscribe@...