Fr. David+ These United States will most likely pass laws making odd couplings legal for the purpose of passing on property and tax breaks. I suspect the courts will find this to be fair and equitable. If Churches decided to have nothing to do with the State's definition of marriage and refused to be agents of the State, the worst that is likely to happen to Churches that do not allow their clergy to become Marrying Sams is that they would lose their tax exemptions. We will always be called bigoted Bible Thumpers and possibly worse, whether we take such a stand or not. If clergy do not allow themselves to become agents of the state, and the church is not beholden to the state for receiving special benefits, then I think we are out of the controversy but not beyond the contempt. The servant should never expect to receive better treatment than his Lord. We are dealing with more than a mound of fire ants here. The coalition of pagans and those promoting the gay-agenda out-maneuvered Christians in the business and political world decades ago. I suspect they have enough voters that congress will roll over. The secular world doesn't need or want to launch a violent attack on Christians to have their way; they have already won in the market place of ideas in the post-Christian western nations. The movies, books and general media attest to the general decline of the west, and that element of the media have helped carry the day for the secularists. Many Christian organizations are cash cows for the secularists. Da Vinci Codes' success is but one more symptom of the malaise and the gullibility of our people. Sadly, many Christian dollars will go into the coffers of he secularists who produced this travesty; a lesser amount will go into the accounts of expert commentators such as Elaine Pagels. The international conditions that created Nazi Germany and sent a generation hooting back to the ancient war gods are not the same conditions creating secularism in our day and in our country. The secularists have already won without firing a shot and control the media and the wealth and get their way politically regardless of which party is in office. They enjoy our tacit approval and support in the market place. A sort of populist Christian politics gets lip service and not much more. The secularists do not need to make martyrs in order to have power, they already have it. The powers that be profit by allowing diversity. They let us mutter in the background while we pay our dues. I'm not pessimistic. There is still plenty of room in America for Christians to live exemplary lives and to teach. We won't win in the halls of congress at this time, however. To change the nation will take at least a generation of effort. In my opinion the place to begin to instill Christian family values is not with the legislatures but with young couples. I find that people as they take on family responsibility, rearing their infant children are more inclined to accept the values taught by our faith than any other age group. From the time that I began rearing children, I have observed that young moms and dads tend to be more conservative than teeners or older adults. It is difficult to bridge the genertion gap initially. When I moved to Indianapolis 2 years ago, I knew not one person who newly married. The youngest person in the congregation was in his 50's. Most were retired. Over a year passed before we received our first couple and one single person who was in their 20's. This year our efforts are beginning to be rewarded. In my last two confirmation classes with young adults, I began not with Baptism and Eucharist, but with Jesus' teaching in regard to marriage. Using John, (the Signs Gospel) and talking about the signs that God is still with us, I showed that Jesus began his ministry and signs at the Wedding Feast in Cana. I raised the question, "Is marriage a sign of God's working in a holy family or is it a "living hell?" By beginning with the Wedding Feast at Cana, using the Prayer Book and the Scripture we talk about the realities of marriage and whether Christ can be incarnate in marriage in these times. After working through Jesus and Paul's teaching in regard to how the marriage covenantal relationship is to be like that between Christ and the Church, we are in a position to talk about real things. Incarnational theology is no longer so abstract, but focused in daily life and makes the concepts of Baptism into Christ a real thing. To my surprise, young families began asking for prayer books to begin devotions around the table in their homes, and asked for further instruction and books. A mother with infant in arms, and a father concerned for spouse and child know from experience the meaning of sacrificial service. They know the value and fragility of life and take it seriously. This past Sunday Bp Shaver visited Church of the Good Shepherd. Eight adults received confirmation. All but two of these were in their twenties. We have two more young couples that were out of town but intend to be confirmed in August. These young people are willing to take up positions of service as they are trained and are eager to bring in others. I may be day-dreaming, but it appears these young people are determined to redeem their time. I seldom see this kind of passion in older adults; and certainly not in our legislators. On a lighter note, a lady dropped into our insurance office and commented that she had learned from the Da Vinci Code movie that the Last Supper painting was not a real portrait of Jesus and the Apostles, but was painted centuries later. Who'd have thought it? Charles+ Church of the Good Shepherd, Indianapolis --- Stlukesangch@... wrote: > Charles and Franklin, > What you say sounds all well and good for now, but it is the future that worries me. I have already experienced personal confrontation from homosexuals for promoting hate speech (which I have not done) for simply being a traditional Anglican. I believe we are going to see a time in the not so distant future when we are not only going to be further marginalized but we will be persecuted.