> Dean Scott+: A good and thoughtful essay though I would demurr with
parts of it. I would suggest that you NOT invoke St Jude for lost things
but rather St Anthony of Padua. He is very good and has helped me many
times. Blessings. GDVW+
>
> Good points Fr. Mark.  While I have no problem at all
> seeing in light of Revelation 12 and early church
> traditions that Mary was held in honor by Christians,
> the question of hermeneutics becomes accute.
>
> The twelve stars in Revelation 12 may be deliberately
> ambiguous; not only honoring the saintly mother of
> Jesus, but refering back to ancient Israel and the new
> Israel of God.  I understand that archaelogists have
> uncovered simple homes in the holy land that had
> family altars for flowers and written on the wall
> behind the altar the names of the Holy Family.  Honor
> to Mary began in the first century.  Obviously too,
> when Jesus said to John, "Behold they mother" he was
> pointing to relationships beyond the physical.  After
> all, both participated in the communion of saints.
>
> Obviously Mary brought forth the man child referred to
> in the vision in Revelation 12.  Also, he was a son of
> mother Israel and mother church. John the Revelator
> may have been pointing us to all of these facts with
> his verbal Icon. Mother church was under persecution
> at the time Revelation was written and we shouldn't
> think it strange that this vision of the work of the
> Church (to be the Mother that continually brings
> Christ into the world) would be to continue a witness
> in suffering as Mary did at the foot of the Cross.
>
> While we like to quote the Apostolic Fathers, we
> should be willing to acknowledge that some of their
> hermeneutical practices in the early centuries had to
> be corrected by Augustine and others.
>
> Many Protestants would have no problem with the
> depiction of the meaning of Revelation 12 that I just
> laid out, unless they believe in "soul sleep" and deny
> any reality to the concept that God holds all souls in
> life.  If the martyred saints under the altar of God
> could pray (Rev 6:9) and not, as Saint Augustine
> pointed out, be unduly distressed by the plight of
> those of us who continue here, it would not seem
> inappropriate to say we "pray before" or "with" the
> saints.  Also, it seems to me that it is not
> inappropriate to ask the saints in glory to pray with
> us in the communion of saints.  "Therefore, with
> angels and archangels and all the company of heaven .
> . . ."
>
> If we take the Book of Revelation seriously, John the
> Revelator does not teach “soul sleep.”  (Revelation
> 6:9-11).  Souls under the altar (the slain martyrs)
> live and pray.  Hebrews 12 refers to the saints as a
> great company that surrounds us.  They are witnesses
> to the continuing pilgrimage of the faithful to the
> Father’s house.
>
> Personally, while I pray, I don't invoke the saints
> other than in the confiteor.  I feel comforted that
> all the company of heaven prays and that I join them.
> I don't pray for St Jude to help me find all the lost
> things I strew behind me in this world.  Perhaps I'm
> missing something by not doing so.  But invocation of
> saints in that sense has never been my practice, and I
> think it hard to find Scriptural backing for it.
>
> I don't find it blasphemous to ask the saints to pray
> for us, anymore than I find it wrong for us to invoke
> one another to pray.  Inviting others to pray for us
> does not deny that Jesus is the mediator of our
> salvation and that the Triune God is the source of all
> blessings.
>
> There is a responsibility of the church to continue to
> pray for all men, and especially those of the
> house-hold of faith in spite of the Mediatorial work
> of the risen Christ.  Our feeble prayers do not
> militate against the atonement, rather they are
> complimentary, an affirmation that God is still at
> work in this world through the Body of Christ.
>
> A good hermeneutical practice would go a long way to
> cure the abuses of traditions gone astray as well as
> the many abuses since the enlightenment and
> reformation.
>
> Charles+
>
>
> -- Mark Clavier+ <anglican@...> wrote:
>
>> Johann+,
>>
>> In my view, there are at least two problems.  First,
>> it seems to be an unnecessary complication needed
> more to bolster the IC than to shed light on anything
> to do with Christ.
> Second, if  Mary could be purified retroactively while
> still alive, why not all the other faithful who were
> alive at that time?
>>
>> I think it's much better to consider the question of
>> why the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception arose
> in the first place, consider the theology that lies
> behind it, and then test it all by the light of
>> Scripture.
>>
>> Mark+
>>
>
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