> Frater: I agree that since 1976 a great deal more water (of a toxic variety) has flown over the dam but the issue of women's ordination is the watershed issue. The Stalinist trial of Righter was an obscenity because as a suffragan/assistant bishop he was only doing what Spong et.al. had told him to do. Court martialling him was a sin and all too typical of the way ill informed pseudo canonists try to play Church. When the House of Bishops > wanted to court martial the late Bishop of California (James A Pike JCD) he invited them so to do but they balked because they knew there was then no one who could best him in a trial by an ecclesiastical court. Not much has changed. ECUSA should have adopted the English rule-those who want a court martial (7 of them in fact) must put up the money for the trial ab initio. Those people who tried Richter did not know much of anything; had they tried their stunt in civil court they would have been laughed out of thehall! GDVW+ > > > > My dear brothers, > > Thank you all for the many excellent postings concerning our ongoing > discussions with ECUSA. If you will permit me I would like to make a few > more comments and express some concerns that I hope we can discuss > further. Please understand that I am not a theologian or a true scholar > as many of you are. > > Let me start by saying that I am not opposed to pursuing talks with > ECUSA at this level and indeed I think it is a good thing in general. > One benefit we have already gained concerns the situation with respect > to military chaplains, which Fr. Mark outlined in his "Musings" which > most of us have seen. Despite this positive start I am not sure, nor I > think is any one else, where these talks will eventually take us, or > what kind of > intercommunion relationship will result. Time will undoubtedly tell. > > So far in our discussion here on Faith and Life we have largely focussed > on the issue of women's ordination. The discussion has been excellent > and very enlightening. If this was the only major issue between > ourselves and ECUSA I think that an agreement of impaired > intercommunion could be quite easily worked out. As most of us know of > course the differences now range far beyond the ordination issue. > > I would disagree with Mark+ concerning our officially agreeing with > ECUSA on the authority of Scripture. I am not so much interested in the > words or official pronouncements made by ECUSA as I am in the various > actions taken by that body when Scripture has been and still is > challenged. Here are are some examples of concern to me: > > I have great concern about the lack of official censure of the writings > of Bp. Spong and others (I chose Spong only because he is so well > known) which have attempted to discredit every major tenant of our > faith from the Virgin Birth to the physical Resurrection of our Lord. > What does that deafening silence say about ECUSA's position on the > authority of Scripture? > > The trial of Bp. Righter is another example. In this case Canon Law was > given precedence to the authority of Scripture. We know several within > ECUSA objected to the decision but no official objections were raised > or pursued. Since that trial there are a number of openly homosexual > clergy in ECUSA who function in a number of capacities without any kind > of official objection to the life style being in opposition to what is > taught in Scripture. Recently we have the issue of a rite for same sex > unions being discussed and threatening to be proposed at the next > General Convention. Once again the official silence on this matter > speaks volumes!! > > The issue of moral theology is a lot more troubling and puts ourselves > and ECUSA poles apart despite our common heritage. These are also > issues that have occurred since we separated from ECUSA. This moral > issue actually penetrates into the teachings of the church as well. If > you review any of the officially sanctioned publications used for > teaching confirmation you will find that in the chapters that discuss > moral theology there is no mention of Holy Matrimony being the only > acceptable situation under which sexual relationships should occur. > Nearly all of these publications condone sexual relationships between > consenting adults. This is information that is being used to teach the > next generation and it is clearly not Scriptural! This does not gel > with the official pronouncements concerning ECUSAs acceptance of the > authority of Scripture. > > The point I am attempting to make here is that we really do have a > number of very major fundamental differences with ECUSA and despite > their official pronouncements their actions tell a very different > story. > > One other issue that we might consider. Do we honestly expect that ECUSA > will treat those of us who are Orthodox/ Traditionalists outside of its > organization any better that it treats those same > Orthodox/Traditionalists within its own ranks? I am thinking most > recently of the events regarding Fr. Edwards and Fr. Moyer. > > From my perspective it looks right now that ECUSA has more to gain from > these talks than we do. They have been asked to engage in talks with > "disaffected Anglicans" and they can at least say they are doing that > and can show that they have really tried to reach out to us.I am not > quite sure at this point what exactly we will gain from these > discussions and I really am not clear on the type of relationship that > we might be able to have with ECUSA and how meaningful that would be. > > I do think though that we really need to all earnestly pray about this > endeavour and trust that the Holy Spirit will indeed provide us with the > knowledge and insight that we need in order to proceed further. > > Yours in Christ, > > Fr. David H. > > > > > >>From: "Mark Clavier+" <anglican@...> >>Reply-To: faithandlife@... >>To: <faithandlife@...> >>Subject: Re: [FaithandLife] orthododox Churchmen in Canada >>Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2003 10:06:11 -0500 >> >>David, >> >>I can easily understand concerns about our talks with ECUSA. Indeed, I >> have >>been surprised about how little concern has actually been expressed! >> >>At the same time, we must remember that there is an enormous difference >> between what we are doing with the REC and what we are doing with >> ECUSA. The former is union; the latter is simply mutual recognition. >> >>And, yes, we certainly do have profound differences (else why do we >> exist?). >>We must also realize that we have extremely profound similarities. The >> ECUSA delegates brought this up at the end of our talks, remarking on >> the vast array of things we don't need to discuss (in comparison to >> their talks with the Lutherans, Presbyterians, and others, even Rome). >> Prayer Books differ, but prayer books are essentials of the Faith. We >> disagree on women's ordination, but that isn't a creedal position, from >> which spirngs orthodoxy or heresy. Thus, with regards to the Lambeth >> Quadrilateral, we officially agree on the authority of Scripture, the >> Creeds, the dominical sacraments, and the historic episcopate (which is >> why we don't >>conditionally >>ordain or confirm Episcopalians who come to us). This encompasses a >> lot of agreement. >> >>Certainly, from our perspective, ECUSA is rife with heresy. And I am >> very pleased that we exist because of that. But splendid isolation >> (which has been the policy of the Continuing Church) is neither >> Catholic nor (when you get right down to it) Evangelical. >> >>Anyway, it is all worthy of our prayers. >> >>Mark+ >> >>BTW, getting exciting about your ordination yet?! >> >> >>-- >>To unsubscribe, send ANY message to >><faithandlife-unsubscribe@...> > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail > > > -- > To unsubscribe, send ANY message to > <faithandlife-unsubscribe@...> ----------------------------------------- This email was sent using FREE Catholic Online Webmail. Please tell your family, friends and children about COL Webmail! http://webmail.catholic.org/ During the Lenten Season, please help support the mission of Catholic Online by purchasing goods and services from our sponsors at http://www.catholic.org/clife/lent