Hi David+
Take a look at your liturgy of Baptism and see what it says.
Glenn+
-----Original Message-----
From: Bigmac077@...
To: faithandlife@...
Sent: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 4:36 pm
Subject: [FaithandLife] Re: faithandlife Digest 19 Jan 2008 15:44:04
-0000 Issue 1245
Maybe I am in the minority friends. I do not believe
just being baptized means you have the H.S. I guess I am too REC!
Seems that baptism is equal to circumcision as in the OT, and that did
not
guarantee eternal life either. Blessings. CH David
McMillan
In a message dated 1/19/2008 9:44:40 A.M. Central Standard Time,
faithandlife-digest-help@... writes:
faithandlife Digest 19 Jan 2008 15:44:04 -0000 Issue
1245
Topics (messages 15492 through 15495):
Is American
Christianity Turning Charismatic?
15492 by: charles
scott
15493 by: Wayne McNamara
15494 by:
charles scott
APA & CCP
15495 by: John S.
Longcamp
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Date:
Tue, 15 Jan 2008 07:51:59 -0800 (PST)
From: charles scott
<crscottblu@...>
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Subject: Is American
Christianity Turning Charismatic?
John+
Thank you for
the article.
I know I’m preaching to the choir here, but
from
Seminary days in the 1950’s until this present it has
been apparent
that when Christians disagree about
“charismatic renewal” or the various
Pentecostal
movements, they are often talking past one another for
want
of precise use of language and understanding of
Apostolic teaching in the
New Testament.
Some questions that help clarify for those with
know
theological training:
Does Baptism mean
anything?
If yes, then all baptized persons
have the gift of
the Holy Spirit.
Hence, the
Church has always been gifted
(charismatic).
"Repent and be
baptized, every one of you, in the name
of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness
of your sins. And
you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
The
promise is for you and your children and for all who
are far off—for
all whom the Lord our God will call."
For those who claim to be
specially gifted, with
powers their fellow Christians do not possess,
other
questions are pertinent:
Do you speak infallibly for
God? The revelation you
have received, is it knowledge no other
Christians
have?
Are your prayers for healing more
effectual than that
of other Christians? If one were to touch the hem
of
your garment, would he be healed?
A pastor would not wish to
“quench the spirit”, or
discourage those who seek spiritual gifts.
However,
the search should be tempered by some reality checks,
lest one
think he “POSSESSES” the spirit, rather than
the spirit possessing
him. The one who seeks
spiritual gifts should manifest in his life
the 7
gifts of the Spirit mentioned in Scripture.
Humility and
the attitude that he is one who serves
should be evident, along with the
greatest gift, love.
It should be apparent to all that unity in the
Body of
Christ is not possible if there is a partisan spirit
manifested
by Christian leaders. I was invited to
participate in a number of
prayer groups during the
“charismatic renewal” that swept across a variety
of
denominations in Cincinnati during the 1970’s.
Protestants and
Catholics frequently met in small
groups for prayer and
encouragement. Most of these
meetings were helpful and relatively
sane. However,
I remember one group that encouraged a
reputedly
gifted person to prophecy. Invariably, after
giving
messages to certain individuals in the group, the
individual
would launch into a description of Christ
on the cross with hideous detail
of his pain.
I was convinced this person was deluded, mad.
One
young couple was convinced that the wife was healed of
severe
scoliosis. For a week or two they reported
improvement in her
condition. Finally, after a month,
they realized the truth and
reported back sadly, that
because of their lack of faith, the wife was
not
healed. This incident was a dramatic example of how
faith
healers can destroy faith. A healing was
promised; the couple
believed, contrary to what their
eyes witnessed, that healing had been
achieved. When
their minds finally accepted what their eyes saw,
that
she still had a severly bent spine, they doubted their
relationship
with Christ.
When I related this story to another priest, it
may
have been Fr McNamara, he commented that the faith
healer may have
been demon possessed, as evidenced by
the fortune-telling and the
extravagant display of the
sufferings of Christ on the Cross, taking
pleasure in
His pain.
I like the Barna surveys for the most
part. However,
this one only reveals the confusion about
spiritual
gifts that has been apparent on the American scene
since the
days of the Great Awakening.
Charles+.
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From: "Wayne
McNamara" <wayne.mcnamara@...>
To:
<faithandlife@...>,
"'Ben Bernier'"
<benbernier@...>,
"'Mark Marshall'"
<mark@...>,
<FaithNPractice@...>,
<DMAclergy@...>
Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 12:26:48
-0500
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Subject: RE:
[FaithandLife] Is American Christianity Turning Charismatic?
Hello,
All.
Oh, the
impossibilities of clear conversation in modern American
Christianity.
Charismatic means so many
things nowadays. I maintain that Anglicanism is both Pentecostal and
Charismatic. We have all been ‘filled with the Holy Spirit’ in the
very
best way, and regarding the charismatos we would say God gives His
grace gifts to whom He pleases, when He pleases, and how He pleases.
We chafe
at the narrow conceptions, shallow and immature understandings, and
distorted
applications of things in Pentecostalism and the charismatic
‘movement’, but
who can deny that God does as He wills, and often works in
extraordinary ways
for many reasons, some of which we are ignorant.
Barna might be right,
maybe the American church is becoming charismatic, but I anecdotally
observe
coming out of those broad charismatic experiences and understandings,
a very
slow but discernible trend of rediscovering the ancient church, a
growing use
of the creeds, the more frequent use of confessions of sin in Lord’s
Day
worship, and comings to the Lord’s Table. There are more frequent
fastings and fervent prayer for the Church and the nation. I know of
a
number of Vineyard churches now using prayers from the BOCP regularly
in their
services, Presbyterians (PCA and OPC) discovering again for the very
first
time covenant renewal worship, and Reformed Baptists ever slowly
including
elements of historic worship.
I also tend to think
the apostasy of many American churches may have precipitated God
doing
something extraordinary in the Pentecostal and Charismatic
experiences of many
(including me); perhaps it was a needed wake-up call for a slumbering
Church,
provoking her to jealousy. True, we might say the most uneducated
and
theologically inept were heirs to the ‘movement’, and that a great
deal of
slop and weirdness developed to be sure. But I, for one, would not be
here
today except that I was there then. In spite of the deformities many
good
things came about because of my time in the charismatic world. It
was
there I first understood the absolute authority of Scripture, the
need for
hierarchy, the sacramental/covenantal nature of the body of Christ, a
strong
vibrant vision of the kingdom of God, and a dedication to
evangelism.
I urge us to pray for
these our brethren. I believe a the strong Anglican Church we are
laboring so hard to reform and establish in North America is
absolutely the
best receptacle to receive them as they grow in the grace and in the
knowledge
of our Lord Jesus Christ.
I remain sincerely
yours in Christ,
Wayne+
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Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 08:51:05 -0800 (PST)
From: charles
scott <crscottblu@...>
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Subject: RE:
[FaithandLife] Is American Christianity Turning Charismatic?
Wayne+
Thank you.
A long time friend from
Texas passed from this life
last year. During his long ministry, he
started 18
churches. Some of them have become quite large. He
also
assisted in supporting overseas missionaries. He
studied enough
during his life time to realize the UPC
was not where he and his friends
should be.
After leaving the UPC he became a defacto bishop
for
the churches he established having earned respect and
love for his
pastoral care.
Like many others, as you indicate in your letter,
he
was searching, but never found his way to the
church
catholic. At this time his sons who are
influential
in these independent churches, are considering linking
with
an Anglican diocese. They see the need you
expressed. Whether
they do link up depends on two
factors: one is their willingness to
accept direction
and the second is whether they feel welcome.
In
your closing paragraph you urge that we pray for
these brothers.
I suggest we not only pray, but watch and pray.
Watch for signs
that people are searching and pray
that we have the right attitude and
loving approach to
be of assistance.
A song with a
particularly annoying sound by Johnny
Cash has a line we would do well to
remember: "I keep
the ends out for the tie that binds."
From what
I've seen in the Midwest, AMIA and CANA
leaders are making some attempt to
"keep the ends out
for the tie that binds." Are we?
Would a
person, a leader from a Pentecostal Church
background feel welcome in our
churches? Would a
Pentecostal Preacher have any hope that he could
be
accepted into a study program and be seriously
considered for
ordination?
Over the course of the last 40+ years I have met
many
people from Holiness and other Fundamentailist
backgrounds.
Some of these were from "poor" families,
who eventually established
businesses or worked their
way to relative affluence. Churches that
were in
storefronts are now in million dollar properties.
In spite
of the change in economic status, and the
passing of older generations,
there remains a sense
that their baptisms, their entrance into Christ is
not
good enough for them to be accepted by liturgical
churches.
Though these are second and third generation city
dwellers, the
children still have an attitude well
expressed in the 1940's by
country-music artist, Roy
Acuff who wrote "Great Speckled Bird."
Though they
listen to different music today, the cultural divide
is
still there.
GREAT SPECKLED BIRD LYRICS
1.What a beautiful thought I am
thinking
Concerning a great speckled bird
Remember her name is
recorded
On the pages of God's Holy Word.
2. All the other birds are
flocking 'round her
And she is despised by the squad
But the great
speckled bird in the Bible
Is one with the great church of God.
3.
All the other churches are against her
They envy her glory and fame
They
hate her because she is chosen
And has not denied Jesus' name.
4.
Desiring to lower her standard
They watch every move that she makes
They
long to find fault with her teachings
But really they find no
mistake.
5. She is spreading her wings for a journey
She's going to
leave by and by
When the trumpet shall sound in the morning
She'll rise
and go up in the sky.
"------------------------------------
I
don't like country music, but the lyrics help us to
see ourselves as others
see us.
Here are other lines from Johnny Cash's song:
I keep a
close watch on this heart of mine
I keep my eyes wide open all the
time.
I keep the ends out for the tie that binds
Let brotherly love
continue.
Charles+
> I urge
us to pray for these our brethren. I believe
> the strong
Anglican Church we are laboring so hard
to reform and establish
in North America is
> absolutely the best receptacle to receive them
as
> they grow in the grace and in the knowledge of our
Lord
Jesus Christ.
>
>
> I remain sincerely yours
in Christ,
>
>
>
> Wayne+
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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> To unsubscribe, send ANY message to:
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faithandlife-unsubscribe@...
>
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Message-ID:
<00bc01c85ab2$181643d0$0200a8c0@John>
From: "John S. Longcamp"
<jlongcamp@...>
To: <faithandlife@...>
Date:
Sat, 19 Jan 2008 08:43:51 -0700
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Subject: APA &
CCP
Brothers+
For several days I have been seeing discussion on
Virtue on Line about Bishop Grundorf's letter to his clergy. I have
not
received a copy from the diocese nor have I seen mention of it on
FaithandLife. What is going on? The question of our (APA's)
participation in CCP previously has caused considerable
discussion.
Did this letter ever go out?
If not, how did David Virtue+ get a
copy?
What is the significance of the silence on
FaithandLife?
John+
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