> Then why does REC say that Holy Baprtism does not always confer objective sanctifying grace? And as for 're-reading' something, I do not subscribe to the Articles and Hooker is a private opinion which must be considered in the milieu of its 'sitz und leben'.Blessings. GDVW+ Please re-read Hooker and the Articles. > > God wishes us to use the outward sacrament not only as a sign or token > of what we receive, but also as an instrument or means by which we > receive grace. Baptism is a sacrament instituted by God in his Church as > a means of incorporating us into Christ; and thus by his most precious > merit we obtain that grace which takes away all former guiltiness, and > that divine virtue of the Holy Spirit which gives to the powers of the > soul their first inclination to a future newness of life > > DH+ > > GDV Wiebe <palatine1477@...> wrote: > .hmmessage P { margin:0px; padding:0px } body.hmmessage { > FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY:Tahoma } So then is St > Peter (acc to Cummins theology) wrong "Baptism DOES now save us"? > This Romish germ (e.g. Baptismal regeneration always occurs when the > Sacrament is administered) is abug bear that continues to deeply > trouble Anglicans and esp Anglo Catholics. Do REC folk believe that > the Sacraments do NOT confer objective grace-or what? Happy Robert E > Lee Day 2008. Blessings. GDVW+ > > > --------------------------------- > Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 14:26:29 -0800 > From: cranmerandlaud@... > To: faithandlife@... > Subject: Re: [FaithandLife] Re: faithandlife Digest 19 Jan 2008 15:44:04 > -0000 Issue 1245 > > Browne's Exposition on this topic is also very good. > > For the sake of brevity, here is the Anglican position in a small space > (from Mr. Hooker). > > "A few statements will make clear the kind of necessity involved in > baptism. First, we must understand what is meant by necessity, and then > we must see in what sense baptism is necessary. Those things are called > necessary which are either the source of some great good or the means of > avoiding some grievous evil. If regeneration were not in this sense > necessary for eternal life, would Christ have said to Nicodemus, "Except > a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God"? [Jn. 3. 3.] > Christ�s next words are, "Except a man be born of water and of the > Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." [Jn. 3. 5.] By these > words he shows us that the Spirit is as necessary for regeneration as > regeneration is necessary for eternal life. > These words also prove to us that just as the Spirit is the inward cause > of our regeneration, so water is the outward means of our regeneration. > If baptism by water were not in some sense necessary, why is our new > birth spoken of as "of water" as well as "of the Spirit"? [Ibid.] Why is > it that we are taught that God sanctifies and cleanses his Church "with > the washing of water by the word"? [Eph. 5. 26.] Why does one Apostle of > Christ call baptism "the washing of regeneration" [Tit. 3. 5.] and > another advise men to receive outward baptism "in the name of Je-sus > Christ for the remission of Sins"? [Acts 2. 38.] > There is a kind of necessity about baptism, but it is not an absolute > necessity. That would only be true if baptism were a condition without > which regeneration could not come to be. In that case baptism would have > such natural or supernatural power in itself that regeneration would not > take place without it, and then nobody would ever receive grace before > baptism. If you do not first have the cause, you do not have the results > that necessarily spring from it. Thus, if baptism were absolutely > necessary for the reception of grace, no man would receive grace without > it. In many cases we know that this is not so, but in other cases, > although we do not make baptism the necessary cause of grace, yet we do > recognize that grace given in baptism has a kind of dependence on the > outward sacrament. God wishes us to use the outward sacrament not only > as a sign or token of what we receive, but also as an instrument or > means by which we receive grace. Baptism is a sacrament instituted > by God in his Church as a means of incorporating us into Christ; and thus > by his most precious merit we obtain that grace which takes away all > former guiltiness, and that divine virtue of the Holy Spirit which gives > to the powers of the soul their first inclination to a future newness of > life." > > DH+ > > Bigmac077@... wrote: > Maybe I am in the minority friends. I do not believe just being > baptized means you have the H.S. I guess I am too REC! Seems that > baptism is equal to circumcision as in the OT, and that did not > guarantee eternal life either. Blessings. CH David McMillan > > In a message dated 1/19/2008 9:44:40 A.M. Central Standard Time, > faithandlife-digest-help@... writes: > > faithandlife Digest 19 Jan 2008 15:44:04 -0000 Issue 1245 > > Topics (messages 15492 through 15495): > > Is American Christianity Turning Charismatic? > 15492 by: charles scott > 15493 by: Wayne McNamara > 15494 by: charles scott > > APA & CCP > 15495 by: John S. Longcamp > > Administrivia: > > To subscribe to the digest, e-mail: > <faithandlife-digest-subscribe@...> > > To unsubscribe from the digest, e-mail: > <faithandlife-digest-unsubscribe@...> > > To post to the list, e-mail: > <faithandlife@...> > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 07:51:59 -0800 (PST) > From: charles scott <crscottblu@...> > To: faithandlife@... > MIME-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > Message-ID: <610524.27288.qm@...> > Subject: Is American Christianity Turning Charismatic? > > > > John+ > > Thank you for the article. > > I know I’m preaching to the choir here, but from > Seminary days in the 1950’s until this present it has > been apparent that when Christians disagree about > “charismatic renewal” or the various Pentecostal > movements, they are often talking past one another for > want of precise use of language and understanding of > Apostolic teaching in the New Testament. > > Some questions that help clarify for those with know > theological training: > Does Baptism mean anything? > If yes, then all baptized persons have the gift of > the Holy Spirit. > Hence, the Church has always been gifted > (charismatic). > > "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name > of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And > you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. The > promise is for you and your children and for all who > are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call." > > For those who claim to be specially gifted, with > powers their fellow Christians do not possess, other > questions are pertinent: > > Do you speak infallibly for God? The revelation you > have received, is it knowledge no other Christians > have? > Are your prayers for healing more effectual than that > of other Christians? If one were to touch the hem of > your garment, would he be healed? > > A pastor would not wish to “quench the spirit”, or > discourage those who seek spiritual gifts. However, > the search should be tempered by some reality checks, > lest one think he “POSSESSES” the spirit, rather than > the spirit possessing him. The one who seeks > spiritual gifts should manifest in his life the 7 > gifts of the Spirit mentioned in Scripture. > Humility and the attitude that he is one who serves > should be evident, along with the greatest gift, love. > > It should be apparent to all that unity in the Body of > Christ is not possible if there is a partisan spirit > manifested by Christian leaders. I was invited to > participate in a number of prayer groups during the > “charismatic renewal” that swept across a variety of > denominations in Cincinnati during the 1970’s. > Protestants and Catholics frequently met in small > groups for prayer and encouragement. Most of these > meetings were helpful and relatively sane. However, > I remember one group that encouraged a reputedly > gifted person to prophecy. Invariably, after giving > messages to certain individuals in the group, the > individual would launch into a description of Christ > on the cross with hideous detail of his pain. > > I was convinced this person was deluded, mad. One > young couple was convinced that the wife was healed of > severe scoliosis. For a week or two they reported > improvement in her condition. Finally, after a month, > they realized the truth and reported back sadly, that > because of their lack of faith, the wife was not > healed. This incident was a dramatic example of how > faith healers can destroy faith. A healing was > promised; the couple believed, contrary to what their > eyes witnessed, that healing had been achieved. When > their minds finally accepted what their eyes saw, that > she still had a severly bent spine, they doubted their > relationship with Christ. > > When I related this story to another priest, it may > have been Fr McNamara, he commented that the faith > healer may have been demon possessed, as evidenced by > the fortune-telling and the extravagant display of the > sufferings of Christ on the Cross, taking pleasure in > His pain. > > I like the Barna surveys for the most part. However, > this one only reveals the confusion about spiritual > gifts that has been apparent on the American scene > since the days of the Great Awakening. > > Charles+. > > > > > > --- "John X. Leal" <jlealx1@...> wrote: > >> http://www.churchexecutive.com/Page.cfm/PageID/10470 >> -- >> >> -- >> To unsubscribe, send ANY message to: >> faithandlife-unsubscribe@... >> > > > > From: "Wayne McNamara" <wayne.mcnamara@...> > To: <faithandlife@...>, > "'Ben Bernier'" <benbernier@...>, > "'Mark Marshall'" <mark@...>, > <FaithNPractice@...>, > <DMAclergy@...> > Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 12:26:48 -0500 > Message-ID: <015801c8579b$cf471a30$6501a8c0@DELLRECTOR> > MIME-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type: multipart/alternative; > boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0159_01C85771.E6711230" > Subject: RE: [FaithandLife] Is American Christianity Turning Charismatic? > > > > .ExternalClass EC_p.MsoNormal, .ExternalClass EC_li.MsoNormal, > .ExternalClass EC_div.MsoNormal > {margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:12.0pt;font-family:'Times New > Roman';} .ExternalClass a:link, .ExternalClass EC_span.MsoHyperlink > {color:blue;text-decoration:underline;} .ExternalClass a:visited, > .ExternalClass EC_span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed > {color:blue;text-decoration:underline;} .ExternalClass pre > {margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:10.0pt;font-family:'Courier New';} > .ExternalClass EC_span.EmailStyle18 {font-family:Arial;color:navy;} > @page Section1 {size:8.5in 11.0in;} .ExternalClass EC_div.Section1 > {page:Section1;} Hello, All. > > Oh, the impossibilities of clear conversation in modern American > Christianity. Charismatic means so many things nowadays. I maintain that > Anglicanism is both Pentecostal and Charismatic. We have all been > ‘filled with the Holy Spirit’ in the very best way, and regarding > the charismatos we would say God gives His grace gifts to whom He > pleases, when He pleases, and how He pleases. We chafe at the narrow > conceptions, shallow and immature understandings, and distorted > applications of things in Pentecostalism and the charismatic > ‘movement’, but who can deny that God does as He wills, and often > works in extraordinary ways for many reasons, some of which we are > ignorant. > > Barna might be right, maybe the American church is becoming charismatic, > but I anecdotally observe coming out of those broad charismatic > experiences and understandings, a very slow but discernible trend of > rediscovering the ancient church, a growing use of the creeds, the more > frequent use of confessions of sin in Lord’s Day worship, and comings > to the Lord’s Table. There are more frequent fastings and fervent > prayer for the Church and the nation. I know of a number of Vineyard > churches now using prayers from the BOCP regularly in their services, > Presbyterians (PCA and OPC) discovering again for the very first time > covenant renewal worship, and Reformed Baptists ever slowly including > elements of historic worship. > > I also tend to think the apostasy of many American churches may have > precipitated God doing something extraordinary in the Pentecostal and > Charismatic experiences of many (including me); perhaps it was a needed > wake-up call for a slumbering Church, provoking her to jealousy. True, > we might say the most uneducated and theologically inept were heirs to > the ‘movement’, and that a great deal of slop and weirdness > developed to be sure. But I, for one, would not be here today except > that I was there then. In spite of the deformities many good things came > about because of my time in the charismatic world. It was there I first > understood the absolute authority of Scripture, the need for hierarchy, > the sacramental/covenantal nature of the body of Christ, a strong > vibrant vision of the kingdom of God, and a dedication to evangelism. > > I urge us to pray for these our brethren. I believe a the strong > Anglican Church we are laboring so hard to reform and establish in North > America is absolutely the best receptacle to receive them as they grow > in the grace and in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. > > I remain sincerely yours in Christ, > > Wayne+ > > > > > > > -- To unsubscribe, send ANY message to: > faithandlife-unsubscribe@associate. com > > > > Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 08:51:05 -0800 (PST) > From: charles scott <crscottblu@...> > To: faithandlife@... > MIME-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > Message-ID: <863241.48054.qm@...> > Subject: RE: [FaithandLife] Is American Christianity Turning Charismatic? > > > > > Wayne+ > > Thank you. > > A long time friend from Texas passed from this life > last year. During his long ministry, he started 18 > churches. Some of them have become quite large. He > also assisted in supporting overseas missionaries. He > studied enough during his life time to realize the UPC > was not where he and his friends should be. > After leaving the UPC he became a defacto bishop for > the churches he established having earned respect and > love for his pastoral care. > > Like many others, as you indicate in your letter, he > was searching, but never found his way to the church > catholic. At this time his sons who are influential > in these independent churches, are considering linking > with an Anglican diocese. They see the need you > expressed. Whether they do link up depends on two > factors: one is their willingness to accept direction > and the second is whether they feel welcome. > > In your closing paragraph you urge that we pray for > these brothers. > > I suggest we not only pray, but watch and pray. > Watch for signs that people are searching and pray > that we have the right attitude and loving approach to > be of assistance. > > A song with a particularly annoying sound by Johnny > Cash has a line we would do well to remember: "I keep > the ends out for the tie that binds." > > From what I've seen in the Midwest, AMIA and CANA > leaders are making some attempt to "keep the ends out > for the tie that binds." Are we? > > Would a person, a leader from a Pentecostal Church > background feel welcome in our churches? Would a > Pentecostal Preacher have any hope that he could be > accepted into a study program and be seriously > considered for ordination? > > Over the course of the last 40+ years I have met many > people from Holiness and other Fundamentailist > backgrounds. Some of these were from "poor" families, > who eventually established businesses or worked their > way to relative affluence. Churches that were in > storefronts are now in million dollar properties. > > In spite of the change in economic status, and the > passing of older generations, there remains a sense > that their baptisms, their entrance into Christ is not > good enough for them to be accepted by liturgical > churches. > > Though these are second and third generation city > dwellers, the children still have an attitude well > expressed in the 1940's by country-music artist, Roy > Acuff who wrote "Great Speckled Bird." Though they > listen to different music today, the cultural divide > is still there. > GREAT SPECKLED BIRD LYRICS > 1.What a beautiful thought I am thinking > Concerning a great speckled bird > Remember her name is recorded > On the pages of God's Holy Word. > > 2. All the other birds are flocking 'round her > And she is despised by the squad > But the great speckled bird in the Bible > Is one with the great church of God. > > 3. All the other churches are against her > They envy her glory and fame > They hate her because she is chosen > And has not denied Jesus' name. > > 4. Desiring to lower her standard > They watch every move that she makes > They long to find fault with her teachings > But really they find no mistake. > > 5. She is spreading her wings for a journey > She's going to leave by and by > When the trumpet shall sound in the morning > She'll rise and go up in the sky. > > "------------------------------------ > > I don't like country music, but the lyrics help us to > see ourselves as others see us. > > Here are other lines from Johnny Cash's song: > > I keep a close watch on this heart of mine > I keep my eyes wide open all the time. > I keep the ends out for the tie that binds > > Let brotherly love continue. > > Charles+ > > > > > > > > > >> I urge us to pray for these our brethren. I believe >> the strong Anglican Church we are laboring so hard > to reform and establish in North America is >> absolutely the best receptacle to receive them as >> they grow in the grace and in the knowledge of our > Lord Jesus Christ. >> >> >> I remain sincerely yours in Christ, >> >> >> >> Wayne+ >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> To unsubscribe, send ANY message to: >> faithandlife-unsubscribe@... >> >> > > > > Message-ID: <00bc01c85ab2$181643d0$0200a8c0@John> > From: "John S. Longcamp" <jlongcamp@...> > To: <faithandlife@...> > Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2008 08:43:51 -0700 > MIME-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type: multipart/alternative; > boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00B9_01C85A77.6A780E00" > Subject: APA & CCP > > > > Brothers+ > > For several days I have been seeing discussion on Virtue on Line about > Bishop Grundorf's letter to his clergy. I have not received a copy from > the diocese nor have I seen mention of it on FaithandLife. What is > going on? The question of our (APA's) participation in CCP previously > has caused considerable discussion. > > Did this letter ever go out? > > If not, how did David Virtue+ get a copy? > > What is the significance of the silence on FaithandLife? > > John+ > > > -- To unsubscribe, send ANY message to: > faithandlife-unsubscribe@associate. com > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape in the new year. > > > -- To unsubscribe, send ANY message to: > faithandlife-unsubscribe@... > > > > --------------------------------- > Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try > it now. > > --------------------------------- > Helping your favorite cause is as easy as instant messaging. You IM, we > give. Learn more. > > -- To unsubscribe, send ANY message to: > faithandlife-unsubscribe@... > > > > > --------------------------------- > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. > -- > To unsubscribe, send ANY message to: > faithandlife-unsubscribe@... > ----------------------------------------- Check out Catholic Online's NEW Catholic Encyclopedia! http://www.catholic.org/encyclopedia/ -- To unsubscribe, send ANY message to: faithandlife-unsubscribe@...