Dear Fr. Derrick,
I appreciate the great quotes. Could you please tell me what you
understand the words "born again" to mean in a modern evangelical
sense? Thanks.
Glenn+
-----Original Message-----
From: Rev. Dr. Derrick Hassert <cranmerandlaud@...>
To: faithandlife@...
Sent: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 12:17:25 -0800 (PST)
Subject: RE: [FaithandLife] Re: faithandlife Digest 19 Jan 2008
15:44:04 -0000 Issue 1245
The Sacrament of Baptism does confer grace, but Baptismal Regeneration
is NOT to be equated with being "born again" in a modern evangelical
sense; it means just what the Articles and the elaboration by Hooker
(already posted) mean. "In the words of the Prayer Book
Catechism, sacraments, properly understood, are "outward and visible
signs of inward and spiritual grace given unto us; ordained by Christ
himself, as a means whereby we receive this grace, and a pledge to
assure us thereof." It is through baptism by water in the Name of
the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost that an individual
dies to sin and rises to new life in Christ. Through this rebirth, or
regeneration, baptism washes away original sin and opens the door to
God’s grace. At baptism, a person is grafted into the Church, the Body
of Christ, and becomes a branch of the Vine. Furthermore, in Baptism a
visible confirmation
is given of God’s forgiveness of the individual’s sins, and one’s
adoption as a son of God and an heir of salvation." DH+
"Rev. Dr. Derrick Hassert" <cranmerandlaud@...> wrote: Please
re-read Hooker and the Articles. God wishes us to use the outward
sacrament not only as a sign or token of what we receive, but also as
an instrument or means by which we receive grace. Baptism is a
sacrament instituted by God in his Church as a means of incorporating
us into Christ; and thus by his most precious merit we obtain that
grace which takes away all former guiltiness, and that divine virtue of
the Holy Spirit which gives to the powers of the soul their first
inclination to a future newness of life
DH+
GDV Wiebe <palatine1477@...> wrote: So then is St
Peter (acc to Cummins theology) wrong "Baptism DOES now save us"? This
Romish germ (e.g. Baptismal regeneration always occurs when the
Sacrament is administered) is abug bear that continues to deeply
trouble Anglicans and esp Anglo Catholics. Do REC folk believe that the
Sacraments do NOT confer objective grace-or what? Happy Robert E Lee
Day 2008. Blessings. GDVW+
Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 14:26:29 -0800
From: cranmerandlaud@...
To: faithandlife@...
Subject: Re: [FaithandLife] Re: faithandlife Digest 19 Jan 2008
15:44:04 -0000 Issue 1245
Browne's Exposition on this topic is also very good. For the sake
of brevity, here is the Anglican position in a small space (from Mr.
Hooker). "A few statements will make clear the kind of necessity
involved in baptism. First, we must understand what is meant by
necessity, and then we must see in what sense baptism is necessary.
Those things are called necessary which are either the source of some
great good or the means of avoiding some grievous evil. If regeneration
were not in this sense necessary for eternal life, would Christ have
said to Nicodemus, "Except a man be born again, he cannot see the
kingdom of God"? [Jn. 3. 3.] Christ’s next words are,
"Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into
the kingdom of God." [Jn. 3. 5.] By these words he shows us that the
Spirit is as necessary for regeneration as regeneration is necessary
for eternal life. These words also prove to us that just as the
Spirit is the inward cause of our regeneration, so water is the outward
means of our regeneration. If baptism by water were not in some sense
necessary, why is our new birth spoken of as "of water" as well as "of
the Spirit"? [Ibid.] Why is it that we are taught that God sanctifies
and cleanses his Church "with the washing of water by the word"? [Eph.
5. 26.] Why does one Apostle of Christ call baptism "the washing of
regeneration" [Tit. 3. 5.] and another advise men to receive outward
baptism "in the name of Je-sus Christ for the remission of Sins"? [Acts
2.
38.] There is a kind of necessity about baptism, but it is not an
absolute necessity. That would only be true if baptism were a condition
without which regeneration could not come to be. In that case baptism
would have such natural or supernatural power in itself that
regeneration would not take place without it, and then nobody would
ever receive grace before baptism. If you do not first have the cause,
you do not have the results that necessarily spring from it. Thus, if
baptism were absolutely necessary for the reception of grace, no man
would receive grace without it. In many cases we know that this is not
so, but in other cases, although we do not make baptism the necessary
cause of grace, yet we do recognize that grace given in baptism has a
kind of dependence on the outward sacrament. God wishes us to use the
outward sacrament not only as a sign or token of what we receive, but
also as an instrument or means by which we receive grace. Baptism is a
sacrament instituted by God in his Church as a means of incorporating
us into Christ; and thus by his most precious merit we obtain that
grace which takes away all former guiltiness, and that divine virtue of
the Holy Spirit which gives to the powers of the soul their first
inclination to a future newness of life." DH+
Bigmac077@... wrote: Maybe I am in the minority friends. I do
not believe just being baptized means you have the H.S. I guess I am
too REC! Seems that baptism is equal to
circumcision as in the OT, and that did not guarantee eternal life
either. Blessings. CH David McMillan In a message dated
1/19/2008 9:44:40 A.M. Central Standard Time,
faithandlife-digest-help@... writes:
faithandlife Digest 19 Jan 2008 15:44:04 -0000 Issue 1245
Topics (messages 15492 through 15495):
Is American Christianity Turning Charismatic?
15492 by: charles scott
15493 by: Wayne McNamara
15494 by: charles scott
APA & CCP
15495 by: John S. Longcamp
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Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 07:51:59 -0800 (PST)
From: charles scott <crscottblu@...>
To: faithandlife@...
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Subject: Is American Christianity Turning Charismatic?
John+
Thank you for the article.
I know I’m preaching to the choir here, but from
Seminary days in the 1950’s until this present it has
been apparent that when Christians disagree about
“charismatic renewal†or the various Pentecostal
movements, they are often talking past one another for
want of precise use of language and
understanding of
Apostolic teaching in the New Testament.
Some questions that help clarify for those with know
theological training:
Does Baptism mean anything?
If yes, then all baptized persons have the gift of
the Holy Spirit.
Hence, the Church has always been gifted
(charismatic).
"Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name
of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And
you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. The
promise is for you and your children and for all who
are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call."
For those who claim to be specially gifted, with
powers their fellow Christians do not possess, other
questions are pertinent:
Do you speak infallibly for God? The revelation you
have received, is it knowledge no other Christians
have?
Are your prayers for healing
more effectual than that
of other Christians? If one were to touch the hem of
your garment, would he be healed?
A pastor would not wish to “quench the spiritâ€, or
discourage those who seek spiritual gifts. However,
the search should be tempered by some reality checks,
lest one think he “POSSESSES†the spirit, rather than
the spirit possessing him. The one who seeks
spiritual gifts should manifest in his life the 7
gifts of the Spirit mentioned in Scripture.
Humility and the attitude that he is one who serves
should be evident, along with the greatest gift, love.
It should be apparent to all that unity in the Body of
Christ is not possible if there is a partisan spirit
manifested by Christian leaders. I was invited to
participate in a number of prayer groups during the
“charismatic renewal†that swept across a variety of
denominations in Cincinnati during the 1970’s.
Protestants and Catholics frequently met in small
groups for prayer and encouragement. Most of these
meetings were helpful and relatively sane. However,
I remember one group that encouraged a reputedly
gifted person to prophecy. Invariably, after giving
messages to certain individuals in the group, the
individual would launch into a description of Christ
on the cross with hideous detail of his pain.
I was convinced this person was deluded, mad. One
young couple was convinced that the wife was healed of
severe scoliosis. For a week or two they reported
improvement in her condition. Finally, after a month,
they realized the truth and reported back sadly, that
because of their lack of faith, the wife was not
healed. This incident was a dramatic example of how
faith healers can destroy faith. A healing was
promised; the couple believed, contrary to what their
eyes
witnessed, that healing had been achieved. When
their minds finally accepted what their eyes saw, that
she still had a severly bent spine, they doubted their
relationship with Christ.
When I related this story to another priest, it may
have been Fr McNamara, he commented that the faith
healer may have been demon possessed, as evidenced by
the fortune-telling and the extravagant display of the
sufferings of Christ on the Cross, taking pleasure in
His pain.
I like the Barna surveys for the most part. However,
this one only reveals the confusion about spiritual
gifts that has been apparent on the American scene
since the days of the Great Awakening.
Charles+.
--- "John X. Leal" <jlealx1@...> wrote:
> http://www.churchexecutive.com/Page.cfm/PageID/10470
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>
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From: "Wayne McNamara" <wayne.mcnamara@...>
To: <faithandlife@...>,
"'Ben Bernier'" <benbernier@...>,
"'Mark Marshall'" <mark@...>,
<FaithNPractice@...>,
<DMAclergy@...>
Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 12:26:48 -0500
Message-ID: <015801c8579b$cf471a30$6501a8c0@DELLRECTOR>
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Subject: RE: [FaithandLife] Is American Christianity Turning
Charismatic?
Hello, All. Oh, the impossibilities of clear conversation
in modern American Christianity. Charismatic means so many things
nowadays. I maintain that Anglicanism is both Pentecostal and
Charismatic. We have all been ‘filled with the Holy Spirit’ in the
very best way, and regarding the charismatos we would say God gives His
grace gifts to whom He pleases, when He pleases, and how He pleases. We
chafe at the narrow conceptions, shallow and immature understandings,
and distorted applications of things in Pentecostalism and the
charismatic ‘movement’, but who can deny that God does as He wills,
and often works in extraordinary ways for many reasons, some of which
we are ignorant. Barna might be
right, maybe the American church is becoming charismatic, but I
anecdotally observe coming out of those broad charismatic experiences
and understandings, a very slow but discernible trend of rediscovering
the ancient church, a growing use of the creeds, the more frequent use
of confessions of sin in Lord’s Day worship, and comings to the
Lord’s Table. There are more frequent fastings and fervent prayer
for the Church and the nation. I know of a number of Vineyard churches
now using prayers from the BOCP regularly in their services,
Presbyterians (PCA and OPC) discovering again for the very first time
covenant renewal worship, and Reformed Baptists ever slowly including
elements of historic worship. I also tend to think the apostasy of
many American churches may have precipitated God doing something
extraordinary in the Pentecostal and Charismatic experiences of many
(including me); perhaps it was a needed wake-up call for a slumbering
Church, provoking her to jealousy. True, we might say the most
uneducated and theologically inept were heirs to the ‘movement’,
and that a great deal of slop and weirdness developed to be sure. But
I, for one, would not be here today except that I was there then. In
spite of the deformities many good things came about because of my time
in the charismatic world. It was there I first understood the absolute
authority of Scripture, the need for hierarchy, the
sacramental/covenantal nature of the body of Christ, a strong vibrant
vision of the kingdom of God, and a dedication to evangelism. I
urge us to pray for these our brethren. I believe a the strong
Anglican Church we are laboring so hard to reform and establish in
North America is absolutely the best receptacle to receive them as they
grow in the grace and in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. I
remain sincerely yours in Christ, Wayne+
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Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 08:51:05 -0800 (PST)
From: charles
scott <crscottblu@...>
To: faithandlife@...
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Subject: RE: [FaithandLife] Is American Christianity Turning
Charismatic?
Wayne+
Thank you.
A long time friend from Texas passed from this life
last year. During his long ministry, he started 18
churches. Some of them have become quite large. He
also assisted in supporting overseas missionaries. He
studied enough during his life time to realize the UPC
was not where he and his friends should be.
After leaving the UPC he became a defacto bishop for
the churches he established having earned respect and
love for his pastoral care.
Like many others, as you indicate in your letter, he
was searching, but never found his way to the
church
catholic. At this time his sons who are influential
in these independent churches, are considering linking
with an Anglican diocese. They see the need you
expressed. Whether they do link up depends on two
factors: one is their willingness to accept direction
and the second is whether they feel welcome.
In your closing paragraph you urge that we pray for
these brothers.
I suggest we not only pray, but watch and pray.
Watch for signs that people are searching and pray
that we have the right attitude and loving approach to
be of assistance.
A song with a particularly annoying sound by Johnny
Cash has a line we would do well to remember: "I keep
the ends out for the tie that binds."
From what I've seen in the Midwest, AMIA and CANA
leaders are making some attempt to "keep the ends out
for the tie that binds." Are we?
Would a person, a
leader from a Pentecostal Church
background feel welcome in our churches? Would a
Pentecostal Preacher have any hope that he could be
accepted into a study program and be seriously
considered for ordination?
Over the course of the last 40+ years I have met many
people from Holiness and other Fundamentailist
backgrounds. Some of these were from "poor" families,
who eventually established businesses or worked their
way to relative affluence. Churches that were in
storefronts are now in million dollar properties.
In spite of the change in economic status, and the
passing of older generations, there remains a sense
that their baptisms, their entrance into Christ is not
good enough for them to be accepted by liturgical
churches.
Though these are second and third generation city
dwellers, the children still have an attitude well
expressed in the 1940's by country-music artist, Roy
Acuff
who wrote "Great Speckled Bird." Though they
listen to different music today, the cultural divide
is still there.
GREAT SPECKLED BIRD LYRICS
1.What a beautiful thought I am thinking
Concerning a great speckled bird
Remember her name is recorded
On the pages of God's Holy Word.
2. All the other birds are flocking 'round her
And she is despised by the squad
But the great speckled bird in the Bible
Is one with the great church of God.
3. All the other churches are against her
They envy her glory and fame
They hate her because she is chosen
And has not denied Jesus' name.
4. Desiring to lower her standard
They watch every move that she makes
They long to find fault with her teachings
But really they find no mistake.
5. She is spreading her wings for a journey
She's going to leave by and by
When the trumpet shall sound in the morning
She'll rise and go up in the
sky.
"------------------------------------
I don't like country music, but the lyrics help us to
see ourselves as others see us.
Here are other lines from Johnny Cash's song:
I keep a close watch on this heart of mine
I keep my eyes wide open all the time.
I keep the ends out for the tie that binds
Let brotherly love continue.
Charles+
> I urge us to pray for these our brethren. I believe
> the strong Anglican Church we are laboring so hard
to reform and establish in North America is
> absolutely the best receptacle to receive them as
> they grow in the grace and in the knowledge of our
Lord Jesus Christ.
>
>
> I remain sincerely yours in Christ,
>
>
>
> Wayne+
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> To
unsubscribe, send ANY message to:
> faithandlife-unsubscribe@...
>
>
Message-ID: <00bc01c85ab2$181643d0$0200a8c0@John>
From: "John S. Longcamp" <jlongcamp@...>
To: <faithandlife@...>
Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2008 08:43:51 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Subject: APA & CCP
Brothers+ For several days I have been seeing discussion on
Virtue on Line about Bishop Grundorf's letter to his clergy. I have
not received a copy from the diocese nor have I seen mention of it on
FaithandLife. What is going on? The question of our (APA's)
participation in CCP previously has caused considerable discussion.
Did this letter ever go out? If not, how did David Virtue+ get
a copy? What is the significance of the silence on FaithandLife?
John+
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