God may choose, extraordinarily, to give what normally comes by baptism to one who is not, or has not, been baptized.
Wayne+
-----Original Message-----
From: The Rev GDVWiebe SSC.,PhD [mailto:gdvw@...]
Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2008 3:53 PM
To: faithandlife@...
Cc: bigchese@...
Subject: [FaithandLife] The Sacrament of Holy Baptism
>
You still have not answered the question: The BCP and
Catholic tradition/teachingis very clear e.g. "Seeing
now that this child IS regenerate(e.g. 'born again')
etc".
As for being 'born again in the
'evangelical sense' we are NOT evangelicals, we are
Catholic. The Protestant 'born again' is a staged
subjective emotional 'experience' (akin to ones
acceptance of the Book of Mormon for example after a
'burning in the breats' which could be heartburn!) and
has NO place in Catholic life or understanding. Holy
Baptism is an objective fact. I hope the REC does not
advocate this nonsense which is so subjective and
injurious to so many. Blessings. GDVW+
The Sacrament of Baptism does confer grace, but Baptismal Regeneration is
> NOT to be equated with being "born again" in a modern evangelical sense;
> it means just what the Articles and the elaboration by Hooker (already
> posted) mean.
>
> "In the words of the Prayer Book Catechism, sacraments, properly
> understood, are "outward and visible signs of inward and spiritual grace
> given unto us; ordained by Christ himself, as a means whereby we receive
> this grace, and a pledge to assure us thereof."
>
> It is through baptism by water in the Name of the Father, and of the
> Son, and of the Holy Ghost that an individual dies to sin and rises to
> new life in Christ. Through this rebirth, or regeneration, baptism
> washes away original sin and opens the door to God’s grace. At baptism,
> a person is grafted into the Church, the Body of Christ, and becomes a
> branch of the Vine. Furthermore, in Baptism a visible confirmation is
> given of God’s forgiveness of the individual’s sins, and one’s adoption
> as a son of God and an heir of salvation."
>
> DH+
>
> "Rev. Dr. Derrick Hassert" <cranmerandlaud@...> wrote:
> Please re-read Hooker and the Articles.
>
> God wishes us to use the outward sacrament not only as a sign or token
> of what we receive, but also as an instrument or means by which we
> receive grace. Baptism is a sacrament instituted by God in his Church as
> a means of incorporating us into Christ; and thus by his most precious
> merit we obtain that grace which takes away all former guiltiness, and
> that divine virtue of the Holy Spirit which gives to the powers of the
> soul their first inclination to a future newness of life
>
> DH+
>
> GDV Wiebe <palatine1477@...> wrote:
> .hmmessage P { margin:0px; padding:0px } body.hmmessage {
> FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY:Tahoma } So then is St
> Peter (acc to Cummins theology) wrong "Baptism DOES now save us"?
> This Romish germ (e.g. Baptismal regeneration always occurs when the
> Sacrament is administered) is abug bear that continues to deeply
> trouble Anglicans and esp Anglo Catholics. Do REC folk believe that
> the Sacraments do NOT confer objective grace-or what? Happy Robert E
> Lee Day 2008. Blessings. GDVW+
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 14:26:29 -0800
> From: cranmerandlaud@...
> To: faithandlife@...
> Subject: Re: [FaithandLife] Re: faithandlife Digest 19 Jan 2008 15:44:04
> -0000 Issue 1245
>
> Browne's Exposition on this topic is also very good.
>
> For the sake of brevity, here is the Anglican position in a small space
> (from Mr. Hooker).
>
> "A few statements will make clear the kind of necessity involved in
> baptism. First, we must understand what is meant by necessity, and then
> we must see in what sense baptism is necessary. Those things are called
> necessary which are either the source of some great good or the means of
> avoiding some grievous evil. If regeneration were not in this sense
> necessary for eternal life, would Christ have said to Nicodemus, "Except
> a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God"? [Jn. 3. 3.]
> Christ’s next words are, "Except a man be born of water and of the
> Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." [Jn. 3. 5.] By these
> words he shows us that the Spirit is as necessary for regeneration as
> regeneration is necessary for eternal life.
> These words also prove to us that just as the Spirit is the inward cause
> of our regeneration, so water is the outward means of our regeneration.
> If baptism by water were not in some sense necessary, why is our new
> birth spoken of as "of water" as well as "of the Spirit"? [Ibid.] Why is
> it that we are taught that God sanctifies and cleanses his Church "with
> the washing of water by the word"? [Eph. 5. 26.] Why does one Apostle of
> Christ call baptism "the washing of regeneration" [Tit. 3. 5.] and
> another advise men to receive outward baptism "in the name of Je-sus
> Christ for the remission of Sins"? [Acts 2. 38.]
> There is a kind of necessity about baptism, but it is not an absolute
> necessity. That would only be true if baptism were a condition without
> which regeneration could not come to be. In that case baptism would have
> such natural or supernatural power in itself that regeneration would not
> take place without it, and then nobody would ever receive grace before
> baptism. If you do not first have the cause, you do not have the results
> that necessarily spring from it. Thus, if baptism were absolutely
> necessary for the reception of grace, no man would receive grace without
> it. In many cases we know that this is not so, but in other cases,
> although we do not make baptism the necessary cause of grace, yet we do
> recognize that grace given in baptism has a kind of dependence on the
> outward sacrament. God wishes us to use the outward sacrament not only
> as a sign or token of what we receive, but also as an instrument or
> means by which we receive grace. Baptism is a sacrament instituted
> by God in his Church as a means of incorporating us into Christ; and thus
> by his most precious merit we obtain that grace which takes away all
> former guiltiness, and that divine virtue of the Holy Spirit which gives
> to the powers of the soul their first inclination to a future newness of
> life."
>
> DH+
>
> Bigmac077@... wrote:
> Maybe I am in the minority friends. I do not believe just being
> baptized means you have the H.S. I guess I am too REC! Seems that
> baptism is equal to circumcision as in the OT, and that did not
> guarantee eternal life either. Blessings. CH David McMillan
>
> In a message dated 1/19/2008 9:44:40 A.M. Central Standard Time,
> faithandlife-digest-help@... writes:
>
> faithandlife Digest 19 Jan 2008 15:44:04 -0000 Issue 1245
>
> Topics (messages 15492 through 15495):
>
> Is American Christianity Turning Charismatic?
> 15492 by: charles scott
> 15493 by: Wayne McNamara
> 15494 by: charles scott
>
> APA & CCP
> 15495 by: John S. Longcamp
>
> Administrivia:
>
> To subscribe to the digest, e-mail:
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>
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>
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>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
> Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 07:51:59 -0800 (PST)
> From: charles scott <crscottblu@...>
> To: faithandlife@...
> MIME-Version: 1.0
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
> Message-ID: <610524.27288.qm@...>
> Subject: Is American Christianity Turning Charismatic?
>
>
>
> John+
>
> Thank you for the article.
>
> I know I’m preaching to the choir here, but from
> Seminary days in the 1950’s until this present it has
> been apparent that when Christians disagree about
> “charismatic renewal†or the various Pentecostal
> movements, they are often talking past one another for
> want of precise use of language and understanding of
> Apostolic teaching in the New Testament.
>
> Some questions that help clarify for those with know
> theological training:
> Does Baptism mean anything?
> If yes, then all baptized persons have the gift of
> the Holy Spirit.
> Hence, the Church has always been gifted
> (charismatic).
>
> "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name
> of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And
> you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. The
> promise is for you and your children and for all who
> are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call."
>
> For those who claim to be specially gifted, with
> powers their fellow Christians do not possess, other
> questions are pertinent:
>
> Do you speak infallibly for God? The revelation you
> have received, is it knowledge no other Christians
> have?
> Are your prayers for healing more effectual than that
> of other Christians? If one were to touch the hem of
> your garment, would he be healed?
>
> A pastor would not wish to “quench the spiritâ€, or
> discourage those who seek spiritual gifts. However,
> the search should be tempered by some reality checks,
> lest one think he “POSSESSES†the spirit, rather than
> the spirit possessing him. The one who seeks
> spiritual gifts should manifest in his life the 7
> gifts of the Spirit mentioned in Scripture.
> Humility and the attitude that he is one who serves
> should be evident, along with the greatest gift, love.
>
> It should be apparent to all that unity in the Body of
> Christ is not possible if there is a partisan spirit
> manifested by Christian leaders. I was invited to
> participate in a number of prayer groups during the
> “charismatic renewal†that swept across a variety of
> denominations in Cincinnati during the 1970’s.
> Protestants and Catholics frequently met in small
> groups for prayer and encouragement. Most of these
> meetings were helpful and relatively sane. However,
> I remember one group that encouraged a reputedly
> gifted person to prophecy. Invariably, after giving
> messages to certain individuals in the group, the
> individual would launch into a description of Christ
> on the cross with hideous detail of his pain.
>
> I was convinced this person was deluded, mad. One
> young couple was convinced that the wife was healed of
> severe scoliosis. For a week or two they reported
> improvement in her condition. Finally, after a month,
> they realized the truth and reported back sadly, that
> because of their lack of faith, the wife was not
> healed. This incident was a dramatic example of how
> faith healers can destroy faith. A healing was
> promised; the couple believed, contrary to what their
> eyes witnessed, that healing had been achieved. When
> their minds finally accepted what their eyes saw, that
> she still had a severly bent spine, they doubted their
> relationship with Christ.
>
> When I related this story to another priest, it may
> have been Fr McNamara, he commented that the faith
> healer may have been demon possessed, as evidenced by
> the fortune-telling and the extravagant display of the
> sufferings of Christ on the Cross, taking pleasure in
> His pain.
>
> I like the Barna surveys for the most part. However,
> this one only reveals the confusion about spiritual
> gifts that has been apparent on the American scene
> since the days of the Great Awakening.
>
> Charles+.
>
>
>
>
>
> --- "John X. Leal" <jlealx1@...> wrote:
>
>> http://www.churchexecutive.com/Page.cfm/PageID/10470
>> --
>>
>> --
>> To unsubscribe, send ANY message to:
>> faithandlife-unsubscribe@...
>>
>
>
>
> From: "Wayne McNamara" <wayne.mcnamara@...>
> To: <faithandlife@...>,
> "'Ben Bernier'" <benbernier@...>,
> "'Mark Marshall'" <mark@...>,
> <FaithNPractice@...>,
> <DMAclergy@...>
> Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 12:26:48 -0500
> Message-ID: <015801c8579b$cf471a30$6501a8c0@DELLRECTOR>
> MIME-Version: 1.0
> Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
> boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0159_01C85771.E6711230"
> Subject: RE: [FaithandLife] Is American Christianity Turning Charismatic?
>
>
>
> .ExternalClass EC_p.MsoNormal, .ExternalClass EC_li.MsoNormal,
> .ExternalClass EC_div.MsoNormal
> {margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:12.0pt;font-family:'Times New
> Roman';} .ExternalClass a:link, .ExternalClass EC_span.MsoHyperlink
> {color:blue;text-decoration:underline;} .ExternalClass a:visited,
> .ExternalClass EC_span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed
> {color:blue;text-decoration:underline;} .ExternalClass pre
> {margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:10.0pt;font-family:'Courier New';}
> .ExternalClass EC_span.EmailStyle18 {font-family:Arial;color:navy;}
> @page Section1 {size:8.5in 11.0in;} .ExternalClass EC_div.Section1
> {page:Section1;} Hello, All.
>
> Oh, the impossibilities of clear conversation in modern American
> Christianity. Charismatic means so many things nowadays. I maintain that
> Anglicanism is both Pentecostal and Charismatic. We have all been
> ‘filled with the Holy Spirit’ in the very best way, and regarding
> the charismatos we would say God gives His grace gifts to whom He
> pleases, when He pleases, and how He pleases. We chafe at the narrow
> conceptions, shallow and immature understandings, and distorted
> applications of things in Pentecostalism and the charismatic
> ‘movement’, but who can deny that God does as He wills, and often
> works in extraordinary ways for many reasons, some of which we are
> ignorant.
>
> Barna might be right, maybe the American church is becoming charismatic,
> but I anecdotally observe coming out of those broad charismatic
> experiences and understandings, a very slow but discernible trend of
> rediscovering the ancient church, a growing use of the creeds, the more
> frequent use of confessions of sin in Lord’s Day worship, and comings
> to the Lord’s Table. There are more frequent fastings and fervent
> prayer for the Church and the nation. I know of a number of Vineyard
> churches now using prayers from the BOCP regularly in their services,
> Presbyterians (PCA and OPC) discovering again for the very first time
> covenant renewal worship, and Reformed Baptists ever slowly including
> elements of historic worship.
>
> I also tend to think the apostasy of many American churches may have
> precipitated God doing something extraordinary in the Pentecostal and
> Charismatic experiences of many (including me); perhaps it was a needed
> wake-up call for a slumbering Church, provoking her to jealousy. True,
> we might say the most uneducated and theologically inept were heirs to
> the ‘movement’, and that a great deal of slop and weirdness
> developed to be sure. But I, for one, would not be here today except
> that I was there then. In spite of the deformities many good things came
> about because of my time in the charismatic world. It was there I first
> understood the absolute authority of Scripture, the need for hierarchy,
> the sacramental/covenantal nature of the body of Christ, a strong
> vibrant vision of the kingdom of God, and a dedication to evangelism.
>
> I urge us to pray for these our brethren. I believe a the strong
> Anglican Church we are laboring so hard to reform and establish in North
> America is absolutely the best receptacle to receive them as they grow
> in the grace and in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
>
> I remain sincerely yours in Christ,
>
> Wayne+
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -- To unsubscribe, send ANY message to:
> faithandlife-unsubscribe@associate. com
>
>
>
> Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 08:51:05 -0800 (PST)
> From: charles scott <crscottblu@...>
> To: faithandlife@...
> MIME-Version: 1.0
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
> Message-ID: <863241.48054.qm@...>
> Subject: RE: [FaithandLife] Is American Christianity Turning Charismatic?
>
>
>
>
> Wayne+
>
> Thank you.
>
> A long time friend from Texas passed from this life
> last year. During his long ministry, he started 18
> churches. Some of them have become quite large. He
> also assisted in supporting overseas missionaries. He
> studied enough during his life time to realize the UPC
> was not where he and his friends should be.
> After leaving the UPC he became a defacto bishop for
> the churches he established having earned respect and
> love for his pastoral care.
>
> Like many others, as you indicate in your letter, he
> was searching, but never found his way to the church
> catholic. At this time his sons who are influential
> in these independent churches, are considering linking
> with an Anglican diocese. They see the need you
> expressed. Whether they do link up depends on two
> factors: one is their willingness to accept direction
> and the second is whether they feel welcome.
>
> In your closing paragraph you urge that we pray for
> these brothers.
>
> I suggest we not only pray, but watch and pray.
> Watch for signs that people are searching and pray
> that we have the right attitude and loving approach to
> be of assistance.
>
> A song with a particularly annoying sound by Johnny
> Cash has a line we would do well to remember: "I keep
> the ends out for the tie that binds."
>
> From what I've seen in the Midwest, AMIA and CANA
> leaders are making some attempt to "keep the ends out
> for the tie that binds." Are we?
>
> Would a person, a leader from a Pentecostal Church
> background feel welcome in our churches? Would a
> Pentecostal Preacher have any hope that he could be
> accepted into a study program and be seriously
> considered for ordination?
>
> Over the course of the last 40+ years I have met many
> people from Holiness and other Fundamentailist
> backgrounds. Some of these were from "poor" families,
> who eventually established businesses or worked their
> way to relative affluence. Churches that were in
> storefronts are now in million dollar properties.
>
> In spite of the change in economic status, and the
> passing of older generations, there remains a sense
> that their baptisms, their entrance into Christ is not
> good enough for them to be accepted by liturgical
> churches.
>
> Though these are second and third generation city
> dwellers, the children still have an attitude well
> expressed in the 1940's by country-music artist, Roy
> Acuff who wrote "Great Speckled Bird." Though they
> listen to different music today, the cultural divide
> is still there.
> GREAT SPECKLED BIRD LYRICS
> 1.What a beautiful thought I am thinking
> Concerning a great speckled bird
> Remember her name is recorded
> On the pages of God's Holy Word.
>
> 2. All the other birds are flocking 'round her
> And she is despised by the squad
> But the great speckled bird in the Bible
> Is one with the great church of God.
>
> 3. All the other churches are against her
> They envy her glory and fame
> They hate her because she is chosen
> And has not denied Jesus' name.
>
> 4. Desiring to lower her standard
> They watch every move that she makes
> They long to find fault with her teachings
> But really they find no mistake.
>
> 5. She is spreading her wings for a journey
> She's going to leave by and by
> When the trumpet shall sound in the morning
> She'll rise and go up in the sky.
>
> "------------------------------------
>
> I don't like country music, but the lyrics help us to
> see ourselves as others see us.
>
> Here are other lines from Johnny Cash's song:
>
> I keep a close watch on this heart of mine
> I keep my eyes wide open all the time.
> I keep the ends out for the tie that binds
>
> Let brotherly love continue.
>
> Charles+
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>> I urge us to pray for these our brethren. I believe
>> the strong Anglican Church we are laboring so hard
> to reform and establish in North America is
>> absolutely the best receptacle to receive them as
>> they grow in the grace and in the knowledge of our
> Lord Jesus Christ.
>>
>>
>> I remain sincerely yours in Christ,
>>
>>
>>
>> Wayne+
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> To unsubscribe, send ANY message to:
>> faithandlife-unsubscribe@...
>>
>>
>
>
>
> Message-ID: <00bc01c85ab2$181643d0$0200a8c0@John>
> From: "John S. Longcamp" <jlongcamp@...>
> To: <faithandlife@...>
> Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2008 08:43:51 -0700
> MIME-Version: 1.0
> Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
> boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00B9_01C85A77.6A780E00"
> Subject: APA & CCP
>
>
>
> Brothers+
>
> For several days I have been seeing discussion on Virtue on Line about
> Bishop Grundorf's letter to his clergy. I have not received a copy from
> the diocese nor have I seen mention of it on FaithandLife. What is
> going on? The question of our (APA's) participation in CCP previously
> has caused considerable discussion.
>
> Did this letter ever go out?
>
> If not, how did David Virtue+ get a copy?
>
> What is the significance of the silence on FaithandLife?
>
> John+
>
>
> -- To unsubscribe, send ANY message to:
> faithandlife-unsubscribe@associate. com
>
>
>
>
>
>
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