> Frater: XCertainly as one who supports civil same sex marriage at the same time I do not suggest this is a sacramental union as the Church-at least since c. 1000 AD or so in the West has understood this. As minoirities (The Continuum I mean) when we help another minority we help ourselves. Blessings. GDVW+John+ > I believe that we have already lost so much to this culture that we are > going to do well to retrieve what the Church used to believe and practice > in her own life and even that will take an enormous amount of personal and > corporate commitment. This is also why the so-called "modern liturgies" > (that now some of our own priests and bishops have become enamored with) > are so undermining. Take a look at any of the new liturgies and examine > them next to any classical BCP and it is breathtaking! One could even > wonder if Holy Matrimony has been effected by their use. At any rate, I > don't think I can improve on what your excellent statement: > > > > > "The other is that matrimony is such a profound concept, so obviously the > union of the opposite sexes—the bestowing of the grace of motherhood, as > you wrote—that we must defend it at all cost. Any attempt to > entertain the union of same sex couples, therefore, is ludicrous, for it > can in no way bestow motherhood." > > > > > This whole discussion as our culture has framed it in the last few years > simply shows how far away we have moved from the real thing; we entered > into a public discourse (I mean the larger cultural one, not here on F&L) > like a boxer who has agreed to blindfolded and and to have one arm tied > around his back. What we should do, in my opinion, is to take our liturgy > very seriously and begin stating unambiguously exactly what Matrimony is > and what it is not. We should do that in preaching and teaching, but we > should also do it as a part of our pastoral counseling and especially in > pre-marital counseling. When I do pre-marital counseling, and I do a lot > of it, I spend most of our time in explaining The Form of Solemnization > of Matrimony. I spend no time on psycho-babble! I explain the rubrics like > the hugely important ones on 300-302. It is indeed ludicrous for us to let > the Commonwealth tell us what matrimony is, just as it is ludicrous for us > to submit to the Commonwealth's definition of when life begins or when > life ends. But, in my opinion, our first task is to retrieve this treasure > for our own branch of Christ's Church. And that, I think, will take > another full generation unless we accept the new liturgies in which case > the whole opportunity will be lost. > > Glenn+ > > > -----Original Message----- > From: John S. Longcamp <jlongcamp@...> > To: faithandlife@... > Sent: Mon, 23 Jun 2008 1:11 am > Subject: Re: [FaithandLife] RSVP/RSVP PATHETIC: GLOBAL ANGLICAN FUTURE - > JERUSALEM 2008 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Glenn+ > > > > > > > > I’d like > to invite you to go a little further with your comments on matrimony vs. > marriage. I can see two ways of > viewing this distinction. One is that the term marriage has already become > such > a corrupted concept compared to matrimony that the current attempt to have > it > include same sex couples can scarcely corrupt it any further. I believe > I have seen this > interpretation expressed in the FaithandLife forum by those who say that > we > should let them have their “marriages”, for it isn’t what we > understand and > defend in our matrimony. > > > > > > The other > is that matrimony is such a profound concept, so obviously the union of > the > opposite sexes—the bestowing of the grace of motherhood, as you > wrote—that we > must defend it at all cost. Any > attempt to entertain the union of same sex couples, therefore, is > ludicrous, for > it can in no way bestow motherhood. > > > > > > Any > further thoughts on this would be appreciated. > > > > > > John+ > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: > gmspencer@... > > > To: faithandlife@... > > > Sent: Sunday, June 22, 2008 8:47 PM > > > Subject: Re: [FaithandLife] RSVP/RSVP > PATHETIC: GLOBAL ANGLICAN FUTURE - JERUSALEM 2008 > > > > > Thank you, Father. > > gms+ > > > -----Original Message----- > From: John S. Longcamp > <jlongcamp@...> > To: faithandlife@... > Sent: > Sun, 22 Jun 2008 10:39 pm > Subject: Re: [FaithandLife] RSVP/RSVP PATHETIC: > GLOBAL ANGLICAN FUTURE - JERUSALEM 2008 > > > > > > Thanks for a most interesting and enlightening > addition to this discussion of "marriage"! > > > > > > John+ > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: > gmspencer@... > > > To: faithandlife@... > > > > Sent: Sunday, June 22, 2008 6:23 > PM > > > Subject: Re: [FaithandLife] RSVP/RSVP > PATHETIC: GLOBAL ANGLICAN FUTURE - JERUSALEM 2008 > > > > > > > > The > meaning of marriage was understood by all. It does > absolutely nothing for the stability of society to change the > meaning of > language to accomodate the few who aren't capable of > marriage. > > > I don't mean to butt in > when you guys seem to having so much fun, but I would like to point > out that > the constant use of the word "marriage" may be > problematic. Our word is > "matrimony" not "marriage." In the Form of Solemnization > of Matrimony on page 303, the BCP declares that Christian matrimony is > a > state of being between one man and one woman that represents “the > spiritual > marriage and unity betwixt Christ and the Church…” The word > “matrimony” > comes from the Latin “matrimonium,” which was derived from the > word for > “material” or “substance.” “Substance” is simply that from > which things are > made. The Latin “mater,” which translated means “mother,” > means the same > thing. All of us were made from our mothers. In the Nicene Creed* when > we > profess that Jesus Christ “was incarnate by the Holy Ghost of the > Virgin > Mary” we are, by professing the “of,” declaring our belief that > the very > material or substance of Christ’s humanity came from his mother > Mary. > Matrimony means Motherhood. It is important to note that the man and > the > woman enter a state matrimony, not patrimony. According to the logic > of the > liturgy of the BCP a maiden (how quaint is that word!) enters the > state of > motherhood when she is married, not when (and if) she actually, > biologically, conceives and bears children. The Form of Solemnization > of > Matrimony bestows the grace of “motherhood,” so that she may walk > faithfully > in that vocation. Children do not make a mother; God makes the mother > so > that children have a mother to come to. Our use of the word "marriage" > is, > in my opinion, a capitulation that allows the state to set the terms > of this > debate. Of course I could be wrong. > > gms+ > -- > > > > > > > > Get the Moviefone Toolbar. Showtimes, theaters, movie > news, & more! > > > -- > To unsubscribe, send ANY message to: faithandlife-unsubscribe@associate. > com > > > > > > > > -- > To unsubscribe, send ANY message to: faithandlife-unsubscribe@associate. > com > > > > > > > > > > > > > Get the Moviefone Toolbar. Showtimes, theaters, movie news, > & more! > > > -- > To unsubscribe, send ANY message to: faithandlife-unsubscribe@associate. > com > > > > > > > > > > -- > To unsubscribe, send ANY message to: faithandlife-unsubscribe@associate. > com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > To unsubscribe, send ANY message to: > faithandlife-unsubscribe@... > >