> Thank you for your comments. I am confused as tow hich minority you are
referring to-I was referring to the Gay Community as a minority and the
Continuum as another.  I believe that there are 2 actually 3 kinds of
homosexuals: Those who are born that way, those who are 'ambiente' (not
sure what they are) and those that we used to call in San Francisco
"Frisco Only Fruits (FOF).The latter were folk that were 'straight' when
at home but somehow 'became gay' when they crossed the Golden Gate
Bridge into Baghdad by the Bay.

    As Catholic priest it is my duty to do what I can within reason and my
resources to help 'all men so that I might by all means affect the
salvation of some" . That is the authentic meaning of the much
mis-used Vatican 2 phrase "preferential option for the poor"

     Let me ask you to prioritise (and anyone else who cares to) the
following issues: Abortion, Homosexuality and the Ordination of
Women. I think the answers will tell us a great deal about many.

    As for (what was it) "Western liberal democracies. Since none of these
actually exist, well...Blessings and keep the dialogue going. It is
very enjoyable and enlightening. GDVW+



Honestly, Fr. Wiebe, I think you are confusing the values of liberal
> Western democracies with the Catholic Church. Which "minorities" are you
> talking about? There's a sub-group of the homosexual community that has
> left that community because they believe it was their bounden duty and
> service to do so. I have a couple of close friends who are part of this
> despised minority and I have sat with them as they wept over the loss of
> innocence, lost time and lost potential. And in addition to that burden
> they have had to struggle against both homosexuals and heterosexuals
> telling them that they are living a lie by marrying women and having
> children. Do you think we should help that "minority" out as well?
> Blessings.
> gms+
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: The Rev GDVWiebe SSC.,PhD <gdvw@...>
> To: faithandlife@...
> Sent: Mon, 23 Jun 2008 6:58 pm
> Subject: [FaithandLife] Not A "Freudian Fixation" RSVP/RSVP PATHETIC:
> GLOBAL ANGLICAN  FUTURE  - JERUSALEM 2008
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>> Frater: XCertainly as one who supports civil same sex marriage at the
> same time I do not suggest this is a sacramental union as the Church-at
> least since c. 1000 AD or so in the West has understood this.  As
> minoirities (The Continuum I mean) when we help another minority we help
> ourselves. Blessings. GDVW+John+
>> I believe that we have already lost so much to this culture that we are
>> going to do well to retrieve what the Church used to believe and
>> practice
>> in her own life and even that will take an enormous amount of personal
>> and
>> corporate commitment. This is also why the so-called "modern liturgies"
>> (that now some of our own priests and bishops have become enamored
>> with)
>> are so undermining. Take a look at any of the new liturgies and examine
>> them next to any classical BCP and it is breathtaking! One could even
>> wonder if Holy Matrimony has been effected by their use. At any rate, I
>> don't think I can improve on what your excellent statement:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> "The other is that matrimony is such a profound concept, so obviously
>> the
>> union of the opposite sexes—the bestowing of the grace of
>> motherhood, as
>> you wrote—that we must defend it at all cost.  Any attempt
>> to
>> entertain the union of same sex couples, therefore, is ludicrous, for it
>> can in no way bestow motherhood."
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> This whole discussion as our culture has framed it in the last few years
>> simply shows how far away we have moved from the real thing; we entered
>> into a public discourse (I mean the larger cultural one, not here on
>> F&L)
>> like a boxer who has agreed to blindfolded and and to have one arm tied
>> around his back. What we should do, in my opinion, is to take our
>> liturgy
>> very seriously and begin stating unambiguously exactly what Matrimony is
>> and what it is not. We should do that in preaching and teaching, but we
>> should also do it as a part of our pastoral counseling and especially in
>> pre-marital counseling. When I do pre-marital counseling, and I do a lot
>> of it, I spend most of our time in explaining The Form of
>> Solemnization
>> of Matrimony. I spend no time on psycho-babble! I explain the rubrics
>> like
>> the hugely important ones on 300-302. It is indeed ludicrous for us to
>> let
>> the Commonwealth tell us what matrimony is, just as it is ludicrous for
>> us
>> to submit to the Commonwealth's definition of when life begins or when
>> life ends. But, in my opinion, our first task is to retrieve this
>> treasure
>> for our own branch of Christ's Church. And that, I think, will take
>> another full generation unless we accept the new liturgies in which case
>> the whole opportunity will be lost.
>>
>> Glenn+
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: John S. Longcamp <jlongcamp@...>
>> To: faithandlife@...
>> Sent: Mon, 23 Jun 2008 1:11 am
>> Subject: Re: [FaithandLife] RSVP/RSVP PATHETIC: GLOBAL ANGLICAN FUTURE
>> -
>> JERUSALEM 2008
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Glenn+
>>
>>
>>  
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> I’d like
>> to invite you to go a little further with your comments on matrimony vs.
>> marriage.  I can see two ways of
>> viewing this distinction. One is that the term marriage has already
>> become
>> such
>> a corrupted concept compared to matrimony that the current attempt to
>> have
>> it
>> include same sex couples can scarcely corrupt it any further.  I
>> believe
>> I have seen this
>> interpretation expressed in the FaithandLife forum by those who say that
>> we
>> should let them have their “marriages”, for it isn’t
>> what we
>> understand and
>> defend in our matrimony.
>>
>>
>>  
>>
>>
>> The other
>> is that matrimony is such a profound concept, so obviously the union of
>> the
>> opposite sexes—the bestowing of the grace of motherhood, as you
>> wrote—that we
>> must defend it at all cost.  Any
>> attempt to entertain the union of same sex couples, therefore, is
>> ludicrous, for
>> it can in no way bestow motherhood.
>>
>>
>>  
>>
>>
>> Any
>> further thoughts on this would be appreciated.
>>
>>
>>  
>>
>>
>> John+
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>>
>>
>> From:
>>   gmspencer@...
>>
>>
>> To: faithandlife@...
>>
>>
>> Sent: Sunday, June 22, 2008 8:47 PM
>>
>>
>> Subject: Re: [FaithandLife] RSVP/RSVP
>>   PATHETIC: GLOBAL ANGLICAN FUTURE - JERUSALEM 2008
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Thank you, Father.
>>
>> gms+
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: John S. Longcamp
>>   <jlongcamp@...>
>> To: faithandlife@...
>> Sent:
>>   Sun, 22 Jun 2008 10:39 pm
>> Subject: Re: [FaithandLife] RSVP/RSVP PATHETIC:
>>   GLOBAL ANGLICAN FUTURE - JERUSALEM 2008
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks for a most interesting and enlightening
>>   addition to this discussion of "marriage"!
>>
>>
>>  
>>
>>
>> John+
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>>
>>
>> From:
>>     gmspencer@...
>>
>>
>> To: faithandlife@...
>>
>>
>>
>> Sent: Sunday, June 22, 2008 6:23
>>     PM
>>
>>
>> Subject: Re: [FaithandLife] RSVP/RSVP
>>     PATHETIC: GLOBAL ANGLICAN FUTURE - JERUSALEM 2008
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> The
>>       meaning of marriage was understood by all.  It does
>>       absolutely nothing for the stability of society to change the
>> meaning of
>>       language to accomodate the few who aren't capable of
>>     marriage.
>>
>>
>> I don't mean to butt in
>>     when you guys seem to having so much fun, but I would like to point
>> out that
>>     the constant use of the word "marriage" may be
>>     problematic.  Our word is
>>     "matrimony" not "marriage." In the Form of Solemnization
>>     of Matrimony on page 303, the BCP declares that Christian matrimony
>> is
>> a
>>     state of being between one man and one woman that represents
>> “the
>> spiritual
>>     marriage and unity betwixt Christ and the Church…” The
>> word
>> “matrimony”
>>     comes from the Latin “matrimonium,” which was derived
>> from the
>> word for
>>     “material” or “substance.”
>> “Substance” is simply that from
>> which things are
>>     made. The Latin “mater,” which translated means
>> “mother,”
>> means the same
>>     thing. All of us were made from our mothers. In the Nicene Creed*
>> when
>> we
>>     profess that Jesus Christ “was incarnate by the Holy Ghost of
>> the
>> Virgin
>>     Mary” we are, by professing the “of,” declaring
>> our belief that
>> the very
>>     material or substance of Christ’s humanity came from his
>> mother
>> Mary.
>>     Matrimony means Motherhood. It is important to note that the man and
>> the
>>     woman enter a state matrimony, not patrimony. According to the logic
>> of the
>>     liturgy of the BCP a maiden (how quaint is that word!) enters the
>> state of
>>     motherhood when she is married, not when (and if) she actually,
>>     biologically, conceives and bears children. The Form of
>> Solemnization
>> of
>>     Matrimony bestows the grace of “motherhood,” so that she
>> may walk
>> faithfully
>>     in that vocation. Children do not make a mother; God makes the
>> mother
>> so
>>     that children have a mother to come to. Our use of the word
>> "marriage"
>> is,
>>     in my opinion, a capitulation that allows the state to set the terms
>> of this
>>     debate. Of course I could be wrong.
>>
>> gms+
>> --
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
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