> Very Rev Sir+: I 'crashed' and lost half of the responses to this good
posting but I must demurr on two points:                                
                                                     1)John Wesley was
WRONG in his commentary om King Charles II but given his antecedents
(his father's family were Non Conformists after all) understandable.
King Charles II( son of Queen Henrietta Maria for whom Maryland is
named; the product of a 'mixed' marriage and himself married to
Catherine of Braganza-thats how England got Tangier as part of the
dowry-a Papist was between a rock and a hard place. He should NOT be
judged by the standards of Whiggish 21 c. America 21c as some writers
tend too often to do.                                                   
                                                                        
                                         2) The past is prologue and the
Oxford Movement were justly aware and not unconcerned about excesses and
indifference of the previous century. One of the reasons that many AC's
were troubled about the appointment of JC Ryle to be 1st Bishop of
Liverpool (and they did not doubt his personal sanctity) was that they
saw in him a manifestation of the Public Worship Act of 12 years before
(things in England go very slowly) which saw some of their brethren end
up in prison for using incense, wearing vestments and the like.         
                                                                        
       To us in 2003 these things seem trivial but what is small today
may be elephantine by next Tuesday! You are correct when yousay that for
most in 21 c America there is little moral foundation anbd less Biblical
literacy (my words) and that is why it falls to us (however reluctant we
may be) to at least try to echo the pericope "...if the trumpet give an
uncertain sound..." but we have to start slowly and carefully.          
                                                                        
  Drew Collins+ SBR recently told us that he had opportunity to preach a
55 minute sermon on St Jude (the longest he has preached). I wonder if
there is some way-esp for those of us cyberchallenged-to get tapes of
some of the preaching in the APA/REC. I daresay some of it is probably
not bad and would be an encouragement to many. I for one would
welcome-both for enjoyment of the art form (sadly dying out) and for
constructive reflection, criticism(not a bad word)and self benefit.
Blessings. GDVW+
> LEGITIMATE CHILDREN OF THE SAME MOTHER?
>
> In the discussion regarding Churchmanship and definitions of
> Evangelicals and Anglo-Catholics, it should not surprise us, since these
> are English Church parties, they are children of the same mother.  I
> suppose the question is, are they legitimate children of the same
> mother?  Or. . . . .not.  8-)
>
> Before drawing any conclusions about the legitimacy of these at least
> fraternal twins, it might be helpful to examine their DNA and determine
> who had been consorting with the mother.
>
> An argument can be made that war is very disruptive of society and while
> there may be no atheists in foxholes, there is likewise no great leap
> forward in morality, civility and Godly living in wartimes.  Civil wars
> are especially uncivil and unsettling.  Following the days of Cromwell
> and the bloody battles over the throne and establishment, there was a
> time when the “winners” in the church and state had an affair with
> rationalism and its leaders were at best deists.  The Enlightened Church
> leadership was captive to a decadent social group that lived well,
> believed little and cared not for the diseased and starving masses.
>
> There is a disconnect between England of that era and the England of the
> time of the Industrial Revolution. To identify John Wesley and others
> sympathetic to his ideals with Puritans of an earlier era would be a
> mistake.  Likewise to identify those attached to the Oxford Movement
> with abusive Bishops of a century before is wrong.
>
> We can see, at this distance in time and space, both movements by these
> fraternal twins were working for a more humane community with high moral
> values and a deeper spirituality.
>
> There is also a disconnect between those 18th and 19th century movements
> and our own time and place.  We are not in Industrial Revolution
> England.  We are in the post Christian United States of America, with
> very little continuing Christian tradition for the majority of Americans
> to fall back on.  In some ways, modern America is like the time of the
> Latitudinarians in England when the majority does not bother with church
> as it is irrelevant and laughable.
>
> It should be noted that both Anglo Catholics and non conformists
> suffered at the hands of the restored monarchy under Charles II in 1660.
>   John Locke had said “Reason, must be our last judge and guide in
> everything.” (Essay Concerning Human Understanding)
>
> David L. Jeffrey writes of that time, “In fact, reason was the ultimate
> guide and judge in almost nothing, even where most laboriously invoked,
> to rationalize its failure.  Yet the notion that it had somehow eclipsed
> faith, as science eclipsed superstition, had already helped bring about
> a massive decline in national religious life.  Rationalism had
> reinforced the moderationism of the Estalishment Church, which for
> political as well as spiritual reasons became highly intolerant of any
> form of visible spirituality.  After the collapse of the Puritan
> Commonwealth and the restoration of the monarchy with Charles II in
> 1660, the Church became effectively a department of state.  Both
> Puritans on the left and Catholics and Anglo Catholics on the right were
> driven out of the Church with vindictive ferocity.”  (David L. Jeffrey
> “A Burning and Shining Light.”)
>
> Jeffrey goes on to note that one fifth of the English clergy were
> deprived of their livings as a result of the Act of Uniformity.  Two
> thousand rectors and vicars refused to take the oath of allegiance and
> were ejected without compensation.
>
> John Wesley wrote of Charles II that “Bloody Mary was a lamb, a mere
> dove, in comparison of him,” the Puritans, Baptists, Presbyterians,
> Independents, Quaker, and any Anglicans who would not swear absolute
> allegiance were, with Catholics, systematically excluded from the
> universities, denied any form of public employment, and driven out of
> “polite society.”
>
> The common enemy of these spiritually fraternal twins is the evil
> culture that had captured the mother.
>
> We are not of that time and place.  We can learn from it, and profit by
> the spirituality handed on by giants in both groups.  We have our own
> culture wars to fight in the here and now, and needn’t be pre-occupied
> with trying to recreate the battle scenes of another century.
>
> Cheers!
>
> Charles+
>
>
> .
>
>
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