John+, Again, I won't defend all of +Williams' beliefs, but I believe you do him an injustice. I think it quite honorable for him to separate his person from his office (something rarely done these days) rather than try to force his opinions on the wider church. I think it even more honorable that he should do this without ever saying, "Well what I really believe is...." In this regard, I think his actions are very much of God. Secondly, even though I do disagree with +Williams on some issues (such as women's ordination) I believe absolutely that he has reached his conviction through prayer, study, and an honest wrestling with discerning God's will. That process, to which all of his writings bear testimony, is again good and of God. We may disagree with his conclusions (and God help us if we are judged on the rightness of every one of our theological conclusions) but we ought to accept and respect his honesty and prayerfulness. I'll even go so far as to say that someone like +Williams who reaches wrong theological conclusions after much prayer, study, and discernment is much healthier than some who holds correct theological positions simply from a gut feeling. Too often, theologically, we give way to a sort of ends justify the means mindset. I've also found that reading +Williams (when he's not entirely opaque) has led me to some very profound theological and spiritual insights. Had I not read his works and considered his thoughts I would be the poorer. That, again is good and of God. As to +Williams election. I certainly won't defend the present system of episcopal appointments in England (though I will note that the PM picks from 2 possibilities elected by the Church of England's Crowns Commission), but I won't hold it against +Williams either. To do so, would be to cast too many heroes, from +Cranmer to +Ramsey, in a similar light! Now, whether +Williams is a giant or not, and whether Rome does a good job of raising giants or not...time will only tell. In the meantime, I shall continue to hold both +Williams and the Pope in my prayers. Lately, I've been reading some of the Cistercian Fathers (such as Aelred of Rievaulx, Bernard of Clairvaux, and Walter Hilton). They've reminded me, in a time when I need such a reminder, that even with heretics and pharisees the only good response both in words and deeds is unreserved love. So, though only from a distance and in prayer, I shall love both men and leave everything else to God. Mark+