That struck me too when you outlined them (the breaking of the power of sin
over the person: i.e., that the sign really does signify the thing given)
and that's very helpful.  I think the real debate -- and this lies behind
much of what Drew+ was talking about -- is whether or not the baptized can
lose the grace of the sacrament, or whether or not (s)he had it to begin
with.

MLW+

-----Original Message-----
From: GMSpencer@... [mailto:GMSpencer@...] 
Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 9:31 AM
To: faithandlife@...
Subject: Re: FW: [FaithandLife] the meaning of the new birth


In a message dated 7/29/05 8:56:39 AM, mward@... writes:


> But I do have a question: Are you trying to convince me of baptismal
> regeneration since I defended Drew's+ remarks about the prospective
promise
> of baptism?
> 

Not at all, I understand that you take a historic Catholic position. But at 
the end of one of our exchanges the other day you ask me how I meant the
term: 
revivalistic or sacramental. So I decided to look at our baptismal text (lex

orandi/lex credendi) and see if I could determine on the basis of specific 
phrases where the weight of the text took me. I've always meant it
sacramentally, 
but I wanted to bracket that for a moment and return to the text. Still, I 
admit, that I cannot approach the text without presuppositions, however I
was 
kind of surprised by the weight given specific concepts when I drew the
phrases 
out and listed them. For me the biggest surprise was the number of
references 
that refer in some way the baptism and the breaking of sin's power over the 
soul. It relies heavily upon the NT. The absurdity of continuing in sin
after 
baptism is especially illuminated by St. Paul in Romans 6. I was surprised
that 
this was so prominent in the baptismal text when set next to, for example,
the 
notion of forgiveness of sin. There is an assumed, very strong, moral 
(probably not the best word) element to baptism, but, taking the other
categories into 
consideration, it isn't "moralistic," or mere "moral effort," but more to 
"family character?" I think.
Glenn

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