I didn't say that you were begging the question.  I was saying that I
addressed your last post in the previous one.  My mistake for being unclear
there.

And re-read my earlier post: I said that it is a "sort of semi-Pelagian"
argument.  There is a difference between something "being" something, and
something only leaning towards it.

But, nevertheless, I think we're getting into another mystery here: there
are passages in scripture that say that we are eternally secure in Christ
(Rm 8:35-39 from this week's lectionary is an example in point) and there
are passages that warn us about falling away (Hb 6:4-6 for example).  And I
know how each is exegeted by the Reformed on one hand, and the non-Reformed
on the other.  But the point is, we are simply wading in the deep end of the
pool (the end that deals with mystery) here, and folks have flogged around
trying to resolves these mysteries for years (with little or no success, I
might add).

Wouldn't you rather talk about contemplative prayer or something?

MLW+


----Original Message-----
From: GMSpencer@... [mailto:GMSpencer@...] 
Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 9:58 AM
To: faithandlife@...
Subject: Re: FW: [FaithandLife] the meaning of the new birth


In a message dated 7/29/05 9:42:09 AM, mward@... writes:


> That begs the question of the post I just returned.
> 
> MLW+
> 

You may be right that I'm begging the question, but I don't think I am. I 
don't agree with you that the Pelagianism is an issue here. It is before
baptism, 
but not after baptism because the baptized person de facto is a new man and 
has be great benefit of the Holy Spirit. But I have to accept the text of
the 
baptismal liturgy and other liturgies in the BCP: for example:
"And we humbly beseech thee, O heavenly Father, so to assist us with thy 
grace, that we may continue in that holy fellowship...(BCP 83)
"And humbly we beseech thee to grant, that he (this regenerate child), being

dead unto sin, my live unto righteousness, and being buried with Christ in
his 
death, may also be partaker of his resurrection...(BCP 281)
These are just two, but there are many others that, I believe, present 
baptism always accomplishing the new birth, but not necessarily
accomplishing 
finally the salvation of the soul.
Glenn+

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