Erich+
Thank you!
So well organized that even a liturgical klutz like meself can use it to
advantage.
Will+
----- Original Message -----
From: <faithandlife-digest-help@...>
To: <faithandlife@...>
Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 10:40 AM
Subject: faithandlife Digest 29 Jul 2005 15:40:31 -0000 Issue 818
> faithandlife Digest 29 Jul 2005 15:40:31 -0000 Issue 818
>
> Topics (messages 8386 through 8415):
>
> Lectionary Resource
> 8386 by: stmary.fdn.com
> 8393 by: Michael Ward
>
> the meaning of the new birth
> 8387 by: GMSpencer.aol.com
> 8388 by: Dominic Taranto
> 8389 by: charles scott
> 8394 by: Michael Ward
> 8396 by: GMSpencer.aol.com
> 8397 by: GMSpencer.aol.com
> 8398 by: Michael Ward
> 8399 by: Michael Ward
> 8400 by: GMSpencer.aol.com
> 8402 by: Michael Ward
> 8406 by: GMSpencer.aol.com
> 8407 by: Bigmac077.aol.com
> 8408 by: Mark Clavier+
> 8410 by: Mark Clavier+
> 8411 by: GMSpencer.aol.com
> 8412 by: Mark Clavier+
> 8413 by: Michael Ward
> 8414 by: Michael Ward
> 8415 by: Mark Clavier+
>
> No way APA webiste
> 8390 by: JADAGENCY.aol.com
> 8391 by: charles scott
> 8395 by: JADAGENCY.aol.com
> 8401 by: St. Mary's Church, Delray Beach
> 8403 by: Michael Ward
> 8404 by: JADAGENCY.aol.com
> 8409 by: GMSpencer.aol.com
>
> TG ITS FRIDAY FUNNY TIME
> 8392 by: charles scott
>
> Bp Brown
> 8405 by: Fr. Don Alley
>
> Administrivia:
>
> To subscribe to the digest, e-mail:
> faithandlife-digest-subscribe@...
>
> To unsubscribe from the digest, e-mail:
> faithandlife-digest-unsubscribe@...
>
> To post to the list, e-mail:
> faithandlife@...
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 21:42:37 -0400
> To: faithandlife@...
> From: stmary@...
> Subject: Lectionary Resource
> Message-ID: <1122601357.42e9898d0523f@...>
>
> Brothers,
>
> Thought those of you still using the BCP Lectionary at Holy Communion (and
> even
> those who are not) might want to check out this excellent resource.
>
> http://lectionarycentral.com/
>
> Erich+
> --
> The Very Rev'd Erich A. Zwingert, SSC, Rector
> St. Mary the Virgin Anglican Church
> 101 Homewood Blvd., Delray Beach, FL 33445
> 561.265.1960
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 08:28:24 -0400
> To: <faithandlife@...>
> From: "Michael Ward" <mward@...>
> Subject: RE: [FaithandLife] Lectionary Resource
> Message-ID: <C952E09E1C13F74FA9B0ACEF856928D004EC50@...>
>
> Erich+
>
> Very cool!!! Wonder why Keble's link is blacked out?
>
> MLW+
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: stmary@... [mailto:stmary@...]
> Sent: Thursday, July 28, 2005 9:43 PM
> To: faithandlife@...
> Subject: [FaithandLife] Lectionary Resource
>
> Brothers,
>
> Thought those of you still using the BCP Lectionary at Holy Communion (and
> even
> those who are not) might want to check out this excellent resource.
>
> http://lectionarycentral.com/
>
> Erich+
> --
> The Very Rev'd Erich A. Zwingert, SSC, Rector
> St. Mary the Virgin Anglican Church
> 101 Homewood Blvd., Delray Beach, FL 33445
> 561.265.1960
>
> --
> To unsubscribe, send ANY message to:
> faithandlife-unsubscribe@...
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 22:35:54 EDT
> To: faithandlife@...
> From: GMSpencer@...
> Subject: the meaning of the new birth
> Message-ID: <1ac.3c76bdb3.301af00a@...>
>
> --part1_1ac.3c76bdb3.301af00a_boundary
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>
> Dear Fr. Mike:
>
> I have gone through the Baptismal service of the 1928 BCP and isolated
> 33=20
> statements that refer in some sense to the effect and benefit of Holy
> Baptis=
> m. I=20
> have grouped the statements into eight general categories and color
> coded=20
> them. If you don't pick up the color I have assigned a number to the
> categor=
> y.=20
> There are two numbers at the end of each citation. The first number is the
> n=
> umber=20
> assigned to the category and the second number is the order of appearance
> in=
> =20
> the BCP of that categorical statement. For example the eleventh citation
> has=
> =20
> the numbers 1 (category) and 1 (order of appearance in the BCP).=20
>
> 1. "that which by nature he cannot have" 3 (1)
> 2. "baptized with Water and the Holy Ghost" 7 (1)
> 3. "received into Christ's holy Church" 4 (1)
> 4. "be made a living member of the same" 4 (2)=20
> 5. "remission of sin" 274 8 (1)
> 6. "spiritual regeneration" 3 (2)
> 7. "the everlasting benediction of they heavenly washing" 2 (1)
> 8. "Give thy Holy Spirit to this Child" 7 (2)
> 9. "That he may be born again" 3 (3)
> 10. "made an heir of everlasting salvation" 5 (1)
> 11. "die to sin and rise to newness of life" 278 1 (1)
> 12. "sinful affections may die in him" 1 (2)
> 13. "all things belonging to the Spirit may live and grow in him" 2 (2)
> 14. "power and strength to...triumph, against the devil, the world, and
> the=20
> flesh." 1 (3)
> 15. "dedicated to thee" 2 (3)
> 16. "endued with heavenly virtues" 2 (4)
> 17. "everlastingly rewarded" 6 (1)
> 18. "mystical washing away of sin" 8 (4)
> 19. "receive the fulness of grace" 2 (5)
> 20. "ever remain in the number of they faithful children" 5 (2)
> 21. "We receive this Child into the Congregation of Christ's flock" 4 (3)
> 22. "sign him with the sign of the Cross" (a soldier of Christ) 1 (4)
> 23. "this Child is regenerate" 3 (4)
> 24. "grafted into the body of Christ's Church" 4 (4)
> 25. "this beginning" 3 (5)=20
> 26. "that it hath pleased thee to regenerate this Child with thy Holy
> Spirit=
> "=20
> 3 (6)=20
> 27. "to receive him for thine own Child" 5 (3)
> 28. "to incorporate him into they holy Church" 4 (5)
> 29. "being dead to sin" 1 (5)
> 30. "live unto righteousness" 2 (6)
> 31. "buried with Christ in his death" 281 1 (6)
> 32. "may be partaker of his resurrection" 6 (2)
> 33. "he may be an inheritor of thine everlasting kingdom" 6 (3)
>
> Eight Categories of Meaning
>
> 1. There are six statements that refer to breaking sin's hold on the
> baptize=
> d=20
> person. Yellow
> 2. There are six statements that refer to the positive righteousness in
> the=20
> baptized. Turquoise
> 3. There are six statements that refer to spiritual regeneration or the
> New=20
> Birth. Duke Blue
> 4. There are five statements that refer to the reception of the baptized
> int=
> o=20
> the Church of God. Red
> 5. There are three statements that refer to the baptized as being made
> a=20
> Child of God. Peach
> 6. There are three eschatological references vis-=E0-vis the baptized
> child.=
> =20
> Periwinkle
> 7. There are two (three counting #26) statements that refer to the
> reception=
> =20
> of the Holy Spirit. Lime 8. There are two statements that refer to=20
> remission or forgiveness of sin. Green
>
> Conclusion: Baptism is the New Birth by which is meant Adoption as Sons
> of=20
> God, the reordering, through the supernatural action of the Holy Spirit
> upon=
> the=20
> soul of the baptized by which the faculties of the soul that were wounded
> in=
> =20
> the Fall are enlivened, renewed, and reoriented toward God, such that, we
> ma=
> y=20
> be forgiven our sins, but further that sin's hold upon the soul is broken
> an=
> d=20
> we are free not only to resist sin, but positively, truly to grow into
> the=20
> image and likeness of God not merely through imputation, but now, by the
> gra=
> ce of=20
> God, by real participation in the life of God. The true home of the
> baptized=
> =20
> is the Church of God who administered the life-giving sacrament by
> Christ's=20
> commandment and this Church abides in three states, Militant,
> Expectant,=20
> Triumphant, in whose fellowship we pray by God's grace to continue to our
> li=
> fe's end.=20
>
> This could use some refinement.=20
> Glenn+
>
> --
> To unsubscribe, send ANY message to:
> faithandlife-unsubscribe@...
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 21:07:13 -0700
> To: <faithandlife@...>
> From: "Dominic Taranto" <Dom_Joy@...>
> Subject: Re: [FaithandLife] the meaning of the new birth
> Message-ID: <BAY103-DAV54F3A5679FE9CAF8E42F880CE0@...>
>
> ------=_NextPart_000_0024_01C593B8.53989020
> Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1"
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>
> Glenn+,
>
> Thank you for posting this. I think that it is a very nicely done =
> project that will be a helpful starting point in putting together =
> various materials and lessons on baptism!
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Dominic Taranto+
> ----- Original Message -----=20
> From: GMSpencer@...<mailto:GMSpencer@...>=20
> To: faithandlife@...<mailto:faithandlife@...>=20
> Sent: Thursday, July 28, 2005 7:35 PM
> Subject: [FaithandLife] the meaning of the new birth
>
> Dear Fr. Mike:
>
> I have gone through the Baptismal service of the 1928 BCP and isolated =
> 33=20
> statements that refer in some sense to the effect and benefit of Holy =
> Baptism. I=20
> have grouped the statements into eight general categories and color =
> coded=20
> them. If you don't pick up the color I have assigned a number to the =
> category.=20
> There are two numbers at the end of each citation. The first number is =
> the number=20
> assigned to the category and the second number is the order of =
> appearance in=20
> the BCP of that categorical statement. For example the eleventh =
> citation has=20
> the numbers 1 (category) and 1 (order of appearance in the BCP).=20
>
> 1. "that which by nature he cannot have" 3 (1)
> 2. "baptized with Water and the Holy Ghost" 7 (1)
> 3. "received into Christ's holy Church" 4 (1)
> 4. "be made a living member of the same" 4 (2)=20
> 5. "remission of sin" 274 8 (1)
> 6. "spiritual regeneration" 3 (2)
> 7. "the everlasting benediction of they heavenly washing" 2 (1)
> 8. "Give thy Holy Spirit to this Child" 7 (2)
> 9. "That he may be born again" 3 (3)
> 10. "made an heir of everlasting salvation" 5 (1)
> 11. "die to sin and rise to newness of life" 278 1 (1)
> 12. "sinful affections may die in him" 1 (2)
> 13. "all things belonging to the Spirit may live and grow in him" 2 =
> (2)
> 14. "power and strength to...triumph, against the devil, the world, =
> and the=20
> flesh." 1 (3)
> 15. "dedicated to thee" 2 (3)
> 16. "endued with heavenly virtues" 2 (4)
> 17. "everlastingly rewarded" 6 (1)
> 18. "mystical washing away of sin" 8 (4)
> 19. "receive the fulness of grace" 2 (5)
> 20. "ever remain in the number of they faithful children" 5 (2)
> 21. "We receive this Child into the Congregation of Christ's flock" 4 =
> (3)
> 22. "sign him with the sign of the Cross" (a soldier of Christ) 1 =
> (4)
> 23. "this Child is regenerate" 3 (4)
> 24. "grafted into the body of Christ's Church" 4 (4)
> 25. "this beginning" 3 (5)=20
> 26. "that it hath pleased thee to regenerate this Child with thy Holy =
> Spirit"=20
> 3 (6)=20
> 27. "to receive him for thine own Child" 5 (3)
> 28. "to incorporate him into they holy Church" 4 (5)
> 29. "being dead to sin" 1 (5)
> 30. "live unto righteousness" 2 (6)
> 31. "buried with Christ in his death" 281 1 (6)
> 32. "may be partaker of his resurrection" 6 (2)
> 33. "he may be an inheritor of thine everlasting kingdom" 6 (3)
>
> Eight Categories of Meaning
>
> 1. There are six statements that refer to breaking sin's hold on the =
> baptized=20
> person. Yellow
> 2. There are six statements that refer to the positive righteousness =
> in the=20
> baptized. Turquoise
> 3. There are six statements that refer to spiritual regeneration or =
> the New=20
> Birth. Duke Blue
> 4. There are five statements that refer to the reception of the =
> baptized into=20
> the Church of God. Red
> 5. There are three statements that refer to the baptized as being made =
> a=20
> Child of God. Peach
> 6. There are three eschatological references vis-=E0-vis the baptized =
> child.=20
> Periwinkle
> 7. There are two (three counting #26) statements that refer to the =
> reception=20
> of the Holy Spirit. Lime 8. There are two statements that refer to=20
> remission or forgiveness of sin. Green
>
> Conclusion: Baptism is the New Birth by which is meant Adoption as =
> Sons of=20
> God, the reordering, through the supernatural action of the Holy =
> Spirit upon the=20
> soul of the baptized by which the faculties of the soul that were =
> wounded in=20
> the Fall are enlivened, renewed, and reoriented toward God, such that, =
> we may=20
> be forgiven our sins, but further that sin's hold upon the soul is =
> broken and=20
> we are free not only to resist sin, but positively, truly to grow into =
> the=20
> image and likeness of God not merely through imputation, but now, by =
> the grace of=20
> God, by real participation in the life of God. The true home of the =
> baptized=20
> is the Church of God who administered the life-giving sacrament by =
> Christ's=20
> commandment and this Church abides in three states, Militant, =
> Expectant,=20
> Triumphant, in whose fellowship we pray by God's grace to continue to =
> our life's end.=20
>
> This could use some refinement.=20
> Glenn+
>
> --
> To unsubscribe, send ANY message to: =
> faithandlife-unsubscribe@...<mailto:faithandlife-unsubscribe@as=
> sociate.com>
>
> --
> To unsubscribe, send ANY message to:
> faithandlife-unsubscribe@...
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 21:59:51 -0700 (PDT)
> To: faithandlife@...
> From: charles scott <crscottblu@...>
> Subject: the meaning of the new birth
> Message-ID: <20050729045951.5049.qmail@...>
>
> --0-871176754-1122613191=:4309
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
>
> Fr. Spencer+
>
> Thank you for your analysis and exposition.
>
> We have had several young adults write or come to Good Shepherd recently,
> and I have attempted to find simple ways to present the Good News and the
> teachings of the church.
>
> Here is one that I'm working on in regard to baptism. It is a work in
> progress, the final paragraphs will deal with the theme "if any man is in
> Christ, there is a new creation" and will show how the new person in
> Christ, empowered and enlightened by the Holy Spirit, participates with
> God in the recreation and redemption of our culture, our world.
>
> Charles+
> ------------------------
>
> A PRIMER ON BAPTISM
>
>
>
> Baptism is a strange English word that comes from "baptizo", a Greek word
> that means to immerse in water.
>
>
>
> That bare definition gives not a clue as to what meanings is attached to
> the word by Christians or how it was understood by the first Christians.
> Some Christian teachers have called baptism a "rite of initiation." That
> is true enough, but that sounds like one is joining a college fraternity
> or the Masons. Baptism is a rite of initiation into the Christian Church,
> but again, that doesn't tell us much.
>
>
>
> There are very ancient teachings, traditions handed on by the Jews, about
> God's dealings with the people of the world. Water was an important part
> of the story. In very ancient times, there was a flood so large that it
> became legendary. Some American Indians had flood stories, but the one I
> refer to is in Genesis. The world had become a very evil place. Only one
> man and his family were living righteously. As the old southern spiritual
> goes, "Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord." The ancient evil world
> was destroyed by a flood. Noah, lived by faith, that is by trust in God.
> He followed God's instructions and constructed the ark in which he and
> his family was saved. (Heb 12)
>
>
>
> In his epistle to the "Sojourners of the Diaspora" (I Peter chapter 1-
> written to the New Israel), Peter retells the story and notes that Noah
> was "saved by water." The violent storms that lashed the earth and
> destroyed an evil civilization, lifted Noah and his family to safety.
> Peter says that in like manner, baptism saves the Christian. Baptism
> lifts him out of the evil world toward God and safety. From these
> writings of Peter, some Christians have referred to the Church as the "ark
> of salvation." and to this day a part of the church building is called the
> "nave". (Nave and navy are two English words derived from a Latin word
> "navis".) The Church is a place of sanctuary, of safety, but lets not
> limit our thought to a building, for as you will soon see, the place of
> safety to which baptism brings us is not a building, but the Body of
> Christ.
>
>
>
> Another ancient story, that of the Exodus of the Children of Israel from
> Egypt, involves water. Moses led the Israelites to safety through the Red
> Sea, which overwhelmed the Egyptians, their horses and chariots. Jesus
> Christ was Jewish. So was Saint Paul and nearly all of the first
> generation of Christians. Paul used the story of the Exodus as a symbol
> of baptism. He refers to the flight from Egypt through the Red Seas as
> the baptism of the Israelites to Moses. A flight from an evil world to
> holy ground (I Corinthians 10:2). The follower of Christ leaves the
> world and going through the water of baptism enters Christ.
>
>
>
> Paul's most common explanation of Baptism relates the symbol to the Death,
> Burial, and Resurrection of Jesus Christ. To Paul, the act of baptism
> recreates as in a play, the heart of the Gospel. Romans the 6th chapter
> relates in detail how the person who follows Jesus, accepts him as the
> King (Messiah) is buried with Christ by baptism into his death, and rises
> from that watery grave to walk with Christ in a new life.
>
>
>
> Paul's language is even stronger than that. He says we have died, our old
> way of living is buried, we rise in Christ to live out his life. Paul
> says that we are all "children of God by faith in Christ Jesus." And, "as
> many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is
> neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither
> male nor female,: for you are all one in Christ Jesus."
>
>
>
> Paul sees baptism as the first event in the new life of the Christian.
> Once he has believed Jesus is able to save, he relives the Gospel event.
> He symbolically dies in baptism, he is reborn in Christ to participate
> with God in recreating the world.
>
>
>
> In other places, as in the Acts of Apostles, baptism is identified with
> forgiveness of sins. (Acts 2:38)
>
>
>
> Jesus Christ himself instructed his followers to go to the whole world,
> preach the Gospel, inspire faith and baptize so that sins could be
> forgiven and men and women could find eternal life. (Matthew 28:18-20 and
> Mark 16:16). Jesus had promised his disciples, prior to His death, that
> though He had to go away, He would come to them.
>
>
>
> The Church has traditionally taught 7 sacraments; meaning 7 signs of God's
> presence in the life of a person or a Church. Two of these were
> explicitly commanded by Jesus Christ and hence are called by English
> Churchmen, "Sacraments of the Gospel." These two signs of God's presence
> in our lives are baptism and The Lord's Supper (also called Eucharist or
> Communion). Christians observe these signs "to proclaim the Lord's death
> until He comes again." By baptism the Christian says I am one with
> Christ, the Spirit will inhabit this temple. Christ has stood at this
> hearts door and knocked, and I said, "come in." (Revelation) By
> regularly celebrating Eucharist I am saying to the world, He lives, He is
> here, and I am fed the Bread of Life.
>
>
>
> From the very first day of the Church, Baptism has been coupled with the
> remission of sins and the presence of the Holy Spirit in the life of a
> follower of Christ. After hearing Peter inform them that they had
> crucified the Messiah, some of the Jerusalem Jews "were cut to the heart
> and said to Peter and the apostles, "Friends, what are we to do?"
> "Repent, said Peter, "and be baptized in the name of Jesus the Messiah;
> then your sins will be forgiven and you will receive the gift of the Holy
> Spirit." (Acts 2:38) "And they continued steadfastly in the apostles
> teaching, the breaking of bread, and in prayers."
>
>
>
> Charles+
>
>
>
> GMSpencer@... wrote:I have gone through the Baptismal service of the
> 1928 BCP and isolated 33
> statements that refer in some sense to the effect and benefit of Holy
> Baptism. I
> have grouped the statements into eight general categories <snip>
>
> --
> To unsubscribe, send ANY message to:
> faithandlife-unsubscribe@...
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 09:00:23 -0400
> To: <faithandlife@...>
> From: "Michael Ward" <mward@...>
> Subject: FW: [FaithandLife] the meaning of the new birth
> Message-ID: <C952E09E1C13F74FA9B0ACEF856928D004EC51@...>
>
> Glenn+
>
> I'm not sure I'd refine it very much.
>
> But I do have a question: Are you trying to convince me of baptismal
> regeneration since I defended Drew's+ remarks about the prospective =
> promise
> of baptism? If you are, please remember that I only said that =
> historically,
> there has been a branch in the Church who has held that the promise in
> baptism is a prospective promise wherein one is presumed regenerate =
> until
> proven otherwise (contra the Baptists who presume one is not regenerate
> until proven otherwise). I didn't say that that was the position that I
> held.
>
> But I do understand the implications of the argument both ways. If =
> baptism
> always "works," then Joseph Stalin (who, I believe, was at one time a
> seminary student) would be enjoying the Beatific Vision right now. And =
> I
> don't think that any of us believes that. So, one must either hold that =
> one
> can lose the grace of baptism (a sort of semi-Pelagianism argument that =
> says
> that man's fallen will can over-ride God's transforming grace and is,
> therefore, greater than that transforming grace -- but an argument that =
> also
> flies in the face of all the "eternal security" passages in the Bible), =
> or
> one must believe that not all who are baptized are a true and =
> persevering
> part of God's Church (Augustine's very thorny position).
>
> Either way, at least as regards the question of apostasy, both positions
> lead to the same place: loss of eternal salvation in the end.
>
> MLW+
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: GMSpencer@... [mailto:GMSpencer@...]=20
> Sent: Thursday, July 28, 2005 10:36 PM
> To: faithandlife@...
> Subject: [FaithandLife] the meaning of the new birth
>
> Dear Fr. Mike:
>
> I have gone through the Baptismal service of the 1928 BCP and isolated =
> 33=20
> statements that refer in some sense to the effect and benefit of Holy
> Baptism. I=20
> have grouped the statements into eight general categories and color =
> coded=20
> them. If you don't pick up the color I have assigned a number to the
> category.=20
> There are two numbers at the end of each citation. The first number is =
> the
> number=20
> assigned to the category and the second number is the order of =
> appearance in
>
> the BCP of that categorical statement. For example the eleventh citation =
> has
>
> the numbers 1 (category) and 1 (order of appearance in the BCP).=20
>
> 1. "that which by nature he cannot have" 3 (1)
> 2. "baptized with Water and the Holy Ghost" 7 (1)
> 3. "received into Christ's holy Church" 4 (1)
> 4. "be made a living member of the same" 4 (2)=20
> 5. "remission of sin" 274 8 (1)
> 6. "spiritual regeneration" 3 (2)
> 7. "the everlasting benediction of they heavenly washing" 2 (1)
> 8. "Give thy Holy Spirit to this Child" 7 (2)
> 9. "That he may be born again" 3 (3)
> 10. "made an heir of everlasting salvation" 5 (1)
> 11. "die to sin and rise to newness of life" 278 1 (1)
> 12. "sinful affections may die in him" 1 (2)
> 13. "all things belonging to the Spirit may live and grow in him" 2 (2)
> 14. "power and strength to...triumph, against the devil, the world, and =
> the=20
> flesh." 1 (3)
> 15. "dedicated to thee" 2 (3)
> 16. "endued with heavenly virtues" 2 (4)
> 17. "everlastingly rewarded" 6 (1)
> 18. "mystical washing away of sin" 8 (4)
> 19. "receive the fulness of grace" 2 (5)
> 20. "ever remain in the number of they faithful children" 5 (2)
> 21. "We receive this Child into the Congregation of Christ's flock" 4 =
> (3)
> 22. "sign him with the sign of the Cross" (a soldier of Christ) 1 (4)
> 23. "this Child is regenerate" 3 (4)
> 24. "grafted into the body of Christ's Church" 4 (4)
> 25. "this beginning" 3 (5)=20
> 26. "that it hath pleased thee to regenerate this Child with thy Holy
> Spirit"=20
> 3 (6)=20
> 27. "to receive him for thine own Child" 5 (3)
> 28. "to incorporate him into they holy Church" 4 (5)
> 29. "being dead to sin" 1 (5)
> 30. "live unto righteousness" 2 (6)
> 31. "buried with Christ in his death" 281 1 (6)
> 32. "may be partaker of his resurrection" 6 (2)
> 33. "he may be an inheritor of thine everlasting kingdom" 6 (3)
>
> Eight Categories of Meaning
>
> 1. There are six statements that refer to breaking sin's hold on the
> baptized=20
> person. Yellow
> 2. There are six statements that refer to the positive righteousness in =
> the=20
> baptized. Turquoise
> 3. There are six statements that refer to spiritual regeneration or the =
> New=20
> Birth. Duke Blue
> 4. There are five statements that refer to the reception of the baptized
> into=20
> the Church of God. Red
> 5. There are three statements that refer to the baptized as being made a =
>
> Child of God. Peach
> 6. There are three eschatological references vis-=E0-vis the baptized =
> child.=20
> Periwinkle
> 7. There are two (three counting #26) statements that refer to the =
> reception
>
> of the Holy Spirit. Lime 8. There are two statements that refer to=20
> remission or forgiveness of sin. Green
>
> Conclusion: Baptism is the New Birth by which is meant Adoption as Sons =
> of=20
> God, the reordering, through the supernatural action of the Holy Spirit =
> upon
> the=20
> soul of the baptized by which the faculties of the soul that were =
> wounded in
>
> the Fall are enlivened, renewed, and reoriented toward God, such that, =
> we
> may=20
> be forgiven our sins, but further that sin's hold upon the soul is =
> broken
> and=20
> we are free not only to resist sin, but positively, truly to grow into =
> the=20
> image and likeness of God not merely through imputation, but now, by the
> grace of=20
> God, by real participation in the life of God. The true home of the =
> baptized
>
> is the Church of God who administered the life-giving sacrament by =
> Christ's=20
> commandment and this Church abides in three states, Militant, Expectant, =
>
> Triumphant, in whose fellowship we pray by God's grace to continue to =
> our
> life's end.=20
>
> This could use some refinement.=20
> Glenn+
>
> --
> To unsubscribe, send ANY message to: =
> faithandlife-unsubscribe@...
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 09:31:09 EDT
> To: faithandlife@...
> From: GMSpencer@...
> Subject: Re: FW: [FaithandLife] the meaning of the new birth
> Message-ID: <1f8.eb57841.301b899d@...>
>
> --part1_1f8.eb57841.301b899d_boundary
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>
> In a message dated 7/29/05 8:56:39 AM, mward@... writes:
>
>> But I do have a question: Are you trying to convince me of baptismal
>> regeneration since I defended Drew's+ remarks about the prospective
>> promise
>> of baptism?
>>
>
> Not at all, I understand that you take a historic Catholic position. But
> at
> the end of one of our exchanges the other day you ask me how I meant the
> term:
> revivalistic or sacramental. So I decided to look at our baptismal text
> (lex
> orandi/lex credendi) and see if I could determine on the basis of specific
> phrases where the weight of the text took me. I've always meant it
> sacramentally,
> but I wanted to bracket that for a moment and return to the text. Still, I
> admit, that I cannot approach the text without presuppositions, however I
> was
> kind of surprised by the weight given specific concepts when I drew the
> phrases
> out and listed them. For me the biggest surprise was the number of
> references
> that refer in some way the baptism and the breaking of sin's power over
> the
> soul. It relies heavily upon the NT. The absurdity of continuing in sin
> after
> baptism is especially illuminated by St. Paul in Romans 6. I was surprised
> that
> this was so prominent in the baptismal text when set next to, for example,
> the
> notion of forgiveness of sin. There is an assumed, very strong, moral
> (probably not the best word) element to baptism, but, taking the other
> categories into
> consideration, it isn't "moralistic," or mere "moral effort," but more to
> "family character?" I think.
> Glenn
>
> --
> To unsubscribe, send ANY message to:
> faithandlife-unsubscribe@...
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 09:39:15 EDT
> To: faithandlife@...
> From: GMSpencer@...
> Subject: Re: FW: [FaithandLife] the meaning of the new birth
> Message-ID: <15.49b676c4.301b8b83@...>
>
> --part1_15.49b676c4.301b8b83_boundary
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>
> In a message dated 7/29/05 8:56:39 AM, mward@... writes:
>
>> If baptism
>> always "works," then Joseph Stalin (who, I believe, was at one time a
>> seminary student) would be enjoying the Beatific Vision right now.=A0
>>=20
>
> That would only be the case if the spiritual benefits of baptism, like=20
> regeneration, cannot be lost and we know from the liturgical texts of the
> BC=
> P that=20
> is the case that those benefits can be lost eternally. It is a shame
> that=20
> Stalin and Hitler were baptized, and if rightly performed, grafted into
> the=20=
> body of=20
> Christ's Church, but they did not remain so. Branches grafted into the
> Vine=20
> of Christ may be broken off and cast onto the fire. In that case the
> indelib=
> le=20
> mark of baptism only damns one with a greater judgment. Right?
> Glenn+
>
> --
> To unsubscribe, send ANY message to:
> faithandlife-unsubscribe@...
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 09:43:59 -0400
> To: <faithandlife@...>
> From: "Michael Ward" <mward@...>
> Subject: RE: FW: [FaithandLife] the meaning of the new birth
> Message-ID: <C952E09E1C13F74FA9B0ACEF856928D004EC52@...>
>
> That struck me too when you outlined them (the breaking of the power of =
> sin
> over the person: i.e., that the sign really does signify the thing =
> given)
> and that's very helpful. I think the real debate -- and this lies =
> behind
> much of what Drew+ was talking about -- is whether or not the baptized =
> can
> lose the grace of the sacrament, or whether or not (s)he had it to begin
> with.
>
> MLW+
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: GMSpencer@... [mailto:GMSpencer@...]=20
> Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 9:31 AM
> To: faithandlife@...
> Subject: Re: FW: [FaithandLife] the meaning of the new birth
>
> In a message dated 7/29/05 8:56:39 AM, mward@... writes:
>
>> But I do have a question: Are you trying to convince me of baptismal
>> regeneration since I defended Drew's+ remarks about the prospective
> promise
>> of baptism?
>>=20
>
> Not at all, I understand that you take a historic Catholic position. But =
> at=20
> the end of one of our exchanges the other day you ask me how I meant the
> term:=20
> revivalistic or sacramental. So I decided to look at our baptismal text =
> (lex
>
> orandi/lex credendi) and see if I could determine on the basis of =
> specific=20
> phrases where the weight of the text took me. I've always meant it
> sacramentally,=20
> but I wanted to bracket that for a moment and return to the text. Still, =
> I=20
> admit, that I cannot approach the text without presuppositions, however =
> I
> was=20
> kind of surprised by the weight given specific concepts when I drew the
> phrases=20
> out and listed them. For me the biggest surprise was the number of
> references=20
> that refer in some way the baptism and the breaking of sin's power over =
> the=20
> soul. It relies heavily upon the NT. The absurdity of continuing in sin
> after=20
> baptism is especially illuminated by St. Paul in Romans 6. I was =
> surprised
> that=20
> this was so prominent in the baptismal text when set next to, for =
> example,
> the=20
> notion of forgiveness of sin. There is an assumed, very strong, moral=20
> (probably not the best word) element to baptism, but, taking the other
> categories into=20
> consideration, it isn't "moralistic," or mere "moral effort," but more =
> to=20
> "family character?" I think.
> Glenn
>
> --
> To unsubscribe, send ANY message to: =
> faithandlife-unsubscribe@...
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 09:45:31 -0400
> To: <faithandlife@...>
> From: "Michael Ward" <mward@...>
> Subject: RE: FW: [FaithandLife] the meaning of the new birth
> Message-ID: <C952E09E1C13F74FA9B0ACEF856928D004EC53@...>
>
> That begs the question of the post I just returned.
>
> MLW+
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: GMSpencer@... [mailto:GMSpencer@...]=20
> Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 9:39 AM
> To: faithandlife@...
> Subject: Re: FW: [FaithandLife] the meaning of the new birth
>
> In a message dated 7/29/05 8:56:39 AM, mward@... writes:
>
>> If baptism
>> always "works," then Joseph Stalin (who, I believe, was at one time a
>> seminary student) would be enjoying the Beatific Vision right now.=A0
>>=20
>
> That would only be the case if the spiritual benefits of baptism, like=20
> regeneration, cannot be lost and we know from the liturgical texts of =
> the
> BCP that=20
> is the case that those benefits can be lost eternally. It is a shame =
> that=20
> Stalin and Hitler were baptized, and if rightly performed, grafted into =
> the
> body of=20
> Christ's Church, but they did not remain so. Branches grafted into the =
> Vine=20
> of Christ may be broken off and cast onto the fire. In that case the
> indelible=20
> mark of baptism only damns one with a greater judgment. Right?
> Glenn+
>
> --
> To unsubscribe, send ANY message to: =
> faithandlife-unsubscribe@...
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 09:57:33 EDT
> To: faithandlife@...
> From: GMSpencer@...
> Subject: Re: FW: [FaithandLife] the meaning of the new birth
> Message-ID: <210.5ba5c61.301b8fcd@...>
>
> --part1_210.5ba5c61.301b8fcd_boundary
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>
> In a message dated 7/29/05 9:42:09 AM, mward@... writes:
>
>> That begs the question of the post I just returned.
>>
>> MLW+
>>
>
> You may be right that I'm begging the question, but I don't think I am. I
> don't agree with you that the Pelagianism is an issue here. It is before
> baptism,
> but not after baptism because the baptized person de facto is a new man
> and
> has be great benefit of the Holy Spirit. But I have to accept the text of
> the
> baptismal liturgy and other liturgies in the BCP: for example:
> "And we humbly beseech thee, O heavenly Father, so to assist us with thy
> grace, that we may continue in that holy fellowship...(BCP 83)
> "And humbly we beseech thee to grant, that he (this regenerate child),
> being
> dead unto sin, my live unto righteousness, and being buried with Christ in
> his
> death, may also be partaker of his resurrection...(BCP 281)
> These are just two, but there are many others that, I believe, present
> baptism always accomplishing the new birth, but not necessarily
> accomplishing
> finally the salvation of the soul.
> Glenn+
>
> --
> To unsubscribe, send ANY message to:
> faithandlife-unsubscribe@...
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 11:11:57 -0400
> To: <faithandlife@...>
> From: "Michael Ward" <mward@...>
> Subject: RE: FW: [FaithandLife] the meaning of the new birth
> Message-ID: <C952E09E1C13F74FA9B0ACEF856928D004EC54@...>
>
> I didn't say that you were begging the question. I was saying that I
> addressed your last post in the previous one. My mistake for being =
> unclear
> there.
>
> And re-read my earlier post: I said that it is a "sort of semi-Pelagian"
> argument. There is a difference between something "being" something, =
> and
> something only leaning towards it.
>
> But, nevertheless, I think we're getting into another mystery here: =
> there
> are passages in scripture that say that we are eternally secure in =
> Christ
> (Rm 8:35-39 from this week's lectionary is an example in point) and =
> there
> are passages that warn us about falling away (Hb 6:4-6 for example). =
> And I
> know how each is exegeted by the Reformed on one hand, and the =
> non-Reformed
> on the other. But the point is, we are simply wading in the deep end of =
> the
> pool (the end that deals with mystery) here, and folks have flogged =
> around
> trying to resolves these mysteries for years (with little or no success, =
> I
> might add).
>
> Wouldn't you rather talk about contemplative prayer or something?
>
> MLW+
>
> ----Original Message-----
> From: GMSpencer@... [mailto:GMSpencer@...]=20
> Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 9:58 AM
> To: faithandlife@...
> Subject: Re: FW: [FaithandLife] the meaning of the new birth
>
> In a message dated 7/29/05 9:42:09 AM, mward@... writes:
>
>> That begs the question of the post I just returned.
>>=20
>> MLW+
>>=20
>
> You may be right that I'm begging the question, but I don't think I am. =
> I=20
> don't agree with you that the Pelagianism is an issue here. It is before
> baptism,=20
> but not after baptism because the baptized person de facto is a new man =
> and=20
> has be great benefit of the Holy Spirit. But I have to accept the text =
> of
> the=20
> baptismal liturgy and other liturgies in the BCP: for example:
> "And we humbly beseech thee, O heavenly Father, so to assist us with thy =
>
> grace, that we may continue in that holy fellowship...(BCP 83)
> "And humbly we beseech thee to grant, that he (this regenerate child), =
> being
>
> dead unto sin, my live unto righteousness, and being buried with Christ =
> in
> his=20
> death, may also be partaker of his resurrection...(BCP 281)
> These are just two, but there are many others that, I believe, present=20
> baptism always accomplishing the new birth, but not necessarily
> accomplishing=20
> finally the salvation of the soul.
> Glenn+
>
> --
> To unsubscribe, send ANY message to: =
> faithandlife-unsubscribe@...
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 11:18:02 EDT
> To: faithandlife@...
> From: GMSpencer@...
> Subject: Re: FW: [FaithandLife] the meaning of the new birth
> Message-ID: <99.63451ad8.301ba2aa@...>
>
> --part1_99.63451ad8.301ba2aa_boundary
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>
> In a message dated 7/29/05 11:08:48 AM, mward@... writes:
>
>> Wouldn't you rather talk about contemplative prayer or something?
>>
>
> Now Dr. Ward I understood you to mean the other day when you were giving
> me
> spiritual direction that "talk" about CP was a little like reading a
> roadmap
> and call that a vacation. I depend on you to keep me straight on these
> matter!
> Glenn+
>
> --
> To unsubscribe, send ANY message to:
> faithandlife-unsubscribe@...
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 11:18:09 EDT
> To: faithandlife@...
> From: Bigmac077@...
> Subject: Re: [FaithandLife] the meaning of the new birth
> Message-ID: <1f6.eb82036.301ba2b1@...>
>
> -------------------------------1122650289
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>
> Well if baptism is the new birth, the Adolph Hitler is in heaven.
>
> Baptism is not the new birth. If you go to Mc Donalds, you are not a
> hamburger either.
>
> Entering the doors of the Church does not make you a Christian just
> because
> you were baptized as an infant either.
>
> We have to remain 2 Churches, if you believe baptism is the new birth.
>
> The new birth is an act of God by the Holy spirit , and it may happen at
> baptism, but it is up to GOD!
>
> THE REC must stand for this one, or it has no reason to exist in my
> humble
> opinion. SEE the history of the REC!!!! ( Guelzo, Cummins , etc....)
>
> David McMillan, Chaplain ( Major), U.S.Army
> At Fort Leonard Wood, Missouri, The Army Chemical School Chaplain
> Instructor
> for Ethics
>
> Phone( Home )573-329-2714 " The LORD be with you"
> Answer: " And with thy spirit."
>
> --
> To unsubscribe, send ANY message to:
> faithandlife-unsubscribe@...
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 11:19:05 -0400
> To: <faithandlife@...>
> From: "Mark Clavier+" <anglican@...>
> Subject: Re: FW: [FaithandLife] the meaning of the new birth
> Message-ID: <002201c59450$dde67650$0201a8c0@rector>
>
> Mike+,
>
> I think one of the wiset comments about this issue was made by ole Wm Laud
> who called the whole matter "unmasterable."
>
> I think what makes it all so mysterious is that we keep placing God within
> time. As we can't imagine how election, salvation, perserverence, etc.
> look
> like from outside time, we can't begin to get God's perspective on the
> matter.
>
> Also, it reflects a preoccupation with salvation (which almost always
> becomes self-serving) rather than what we're to do as redeemed, baptized
> human beings. A question I love to put to people is this: "If we can't be
> saved by good works, can we be damned by bad ones?"
>
> Speaking of Palagianism...have you ever noticed how Pelagian most Sunday
> School material is? I was thumbing through children's bibles and
> curricula
> the other day. Almost every story is boiled down to lesson about how one
> ought to obey. The assumption throughout is that if the children try (ie
> exert their will) they can be honest, kind, loving, etc, etc. We learn to
> follow the old Brit early on, don't we?
>
> Mark+
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 11:26:16 -0400
> To: <faithandlife@...>
> From: "Mark Clavier+" <anglican@...>
> Subject: Re: [FaithandLife] the meaning of the new birth
> Message-ID: <002e01c59451$dca2b640$0201a8c0@rector>
>
> Dvaid,
>
> Why does being born again, automatically mean you're going to heaven?
>
> Let's use a Pauline analogy. In Exodus, all the people passed out of
> bondage through the waters of the Red Sea. Paul himself tells us that
> this
> is a foreshadowing of baptism. Indeed, the structure of Romans (I believe
> 5-8) reflects this idea. Baptism frees us from the bondage of sin. But,
> in
> Exodus not all those who passed through the Red Sea made it through the
> Wilderness to the Promised Land. Indeed, not all those who became part of
> the Convenant (ie one of the elect) made it out of the Wilderness. Might
> the same be true for those who have been baptized? Also, might we be
> reading things into regeneration, election, etc. that have little to do
> with
> Jewish concepts of those words???
>
> Mark+
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 11:28:24 EDT
> To: faithandlife@...
> From: GMSpencer@...
> Subject: Re: FW: [FaithandLife] the meaning of the new birth
> Message-ID: <1f0.40d399c6.301ba518@...>
>
> --part1_1f0.40d399c6.301ba518_boundary
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>
> In a message dated 7/29/05 11:19:16 AM, anglican@... writes:
>
>> I think one of the wiset comments about this issue was made by ole Wm
>> Laud
>> who called the whole matter "unmasterable."
>>
>
> Agreed, but we still have to try our best. And we certainly have to try to
> understand what the text of the Baptismal service purports to be
> accomplings.
> Don't you think?
> Glenn
>
> --
> To unsubscribe, send ANY message to:
> faithandlife-unsubscribe@...
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 11:34:36 -0400
> To: <faithandlife@...>
> From: "Mark Clavier+" <anglican@...>
> Subject: Re: FW: [FaithandLife] the meaning of the new birth
> Message-ID: <003701c59453$06c705b0$0201a8c0@rector>
>
> Glenn+,
>
> Agreed, though as long the the form for baptism is used without
> amendation,
> ultimately I'm not much bothered with what the individual priest (or
> presbyter) thinks is happening. That's the nice thing about common prayer
> isn't it?
>
> Mark+
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 11:38:34 -0400
> To: <faithandlife@...>
> From: "Michael Ward" <mward@...>
> Subject: RE: FW: [FaithandLife] the meaning of the new birth
> Message-ID: <C952E09E1C13F74FA9B0ACEF856928D004EC57@...>
>
> Mark+
>
> Well said!! And I suppose in a lot of ways we're all Pelagian on one =
> level
> or another. About 3/4 of my sermons deal with "obedience to the =
> Gospel."
> There ya go.
>
> MLW+
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mark Clavier+ [mailto:anglican@...]=20
> Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 11:19 AM
> To: faithandlife@...
> Subject: Re: FW: [FaithandLife] the meaning of the new birth
>
> Mike+,
>
> I think one of the wiset comments about this issue was made by ole Wm =
> Laud=20
> who called the whole matter "unmasterable."
>
> I think what makes it all so mysterious is that we keep placing God =
> within=20
> time. As we can't imagine how election, salvation, perserverence, etc. =
> look
>
> like from outside time, we can't begin to get God's perspective on the=20
> matter.
>
> Also, it reflects a preoccupation with salvation (which almost always=20
> becomes self-serving) rather than what we're to do as redeemed, baptized =
>
> human beings. A question I love to put to people is this: "If we can't =
> be=20
> saved by good works, can we be damned by bad ones?"
>
> Speaking of Palagianism...have you ever noticed how Pelagian most Sunday =
>
> School material is? I was thumbing through children's bibles and =
> curricula=20
> the other day. Almost every story is boiled down to lesson about how =
> one=20
> ought to obey. The assumption throughout is that if the children try =
> (ie=20
> exert their will) they can be honest, kind, loving, etc, etc. We learn =
> to=20
> follow the old Brit early on, don't we?
>
> Mark+=20
>
> --
> To unsubscribe, send ANY message to: =
> faithandlife-unsubscribe@...
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 11:42:13 -0400
> To: <faithandlife@...>
> From: "Michael Ward" <mward@...>
> Subject: RE: [FaithandLife] the meaning of the new birth
> Message-ID: <C952E09E1C13F74FA9B0ACEF856928D004EC58@...>
>
> Mark+
>
> Read this fellow's article on Augustine's understanding of perseverance =
> and
> baptismal regeneration. If you like the history of doctrine, you'll =
> like
> this article.
>
> http://www.johnowen.org/media/knapp_on_augustine_and_owen.pdf#search=3D'a=
> ugust
> ine%20owen'
>
> MLW+
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mark Clavier+ [mailto:anglican@...]=20
> Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 11:26 AM
> To: faithandlife@...
> Subject: Re: [FaithandLife] the meaning of the new birth
>
> Dvaid,
>
> Why does being born again, automatically mean you're going to heaven?
>
> Let's use a Pauline analogy. In Exodus, all the people passed out of=20
> bondage through the waters of the Red Sea. Paul himself tells us that =
> this=20
> is a foreshadowing of baptism. Indeed, the structure of Romans (I =
> believe=20
> 5-8) reflects this idea. Baptism frees us from the bondage of sin. =
> But, in
>
> Exodus not all those who passed through the Red Sea made it through the=20
> Wilderness to the Promised Land. Indeed, not all those who became part =
> of=20
> the Convenant (ie one of the elect) made it out of the Wilderness. =
> Might=20
> the same be true for those who have been baptized? Also, might we be=20
> reading things into regeneration, election, etc. that have little to do =
> with
>
> Jewish concepts of those words???
>
> Mark+=20
>
> --
> To unsubscribe, send ANY message to: =
> faithandlife-unsubscribe@...
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 11:40:27 -0400
> To: <faithandlife@...>
> From: "Mark Clavier+" <anglican@...>
> Subject: Re: FW: [FaithandLife] the meaning of the new birth
> Message-ID: <003e01c59453$d7f96790$0201a8c0@rector>
>
> Mike+,
>
> This Sunday I'll finish up a 3-part sermon series that began with my
> tackling the whole wheat and tares parable in conjunction with Romans 8.
> I
> end up tying it all to the list in Galatians of the qualities of redeemed
> human nature (love, peace, joy, patience, kindness, goodness,
> faithfulness,
> gentleness, and self-control). As I was working on it, I found myself
> beginning to tell people that these are the things they should aim for.
> Pelagius was rearing his Welsh head. I backed up and talked about their
> being fruits of the Spirit that can only come to us through prayer,
> worship,
> and the sacraments. Amazing the response I got from people. They'd never
> been taught anything like that before.
>
> Mark+
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 01:23:50 EDT
> To: faithandlife@...
> From: JADAGENCY@...
> Subject: No way APA webiste
> Message-ID: <97.64480175.301b1766@...>
>
> -------------------------------1122614629
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>
> Who are these people? Why don't they come out of hiding? Theres a
> "Link"
> to post, but no Contact page for the people who put out this website.
>
>
> Yours in JMJ,
>
> JAD+
>
> --
> To unsubscribe, send ANY message to:
> faithandlife-unsubscribe@...
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 22:33:19 -0700 (PDT)
> To: faithandlife@...
> From: charles scott <crscottblu@...>
> Subject: No way APA webiste
> Message-ID: <20050729053319.46123.qmail@...>
>
> --0-1772624615-1122615199=:45856
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
>
> John+
>
> I may be mistaken, but I think that is a product of some folk in
> Integrity.
>
> Charles+
>
> JADAGENCY@... wrote:
> Who are these people? Why don't they come out of hiding? Theres a "Link"
> to post, but no Contact page for the people who put out this website.
>
> Yours in JMJ,
>
> JAD+
>
> --
> To unsubscribe, send ANY message to:
> faithandlife-unsubscribe@...
>
> --
> To unsubscribe, send ANY message to:
> faithandlife-unsubscribe@...
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 09:22:34 EDT
> To: faithandlife@...
> From: JADAGENCY@...
> Subject: Re: [FaithandLife] No way APA webiste
> Message-ID: <216.5c3d817.301b879a@...>
>
> -------------------------------1122643354
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>
> Charles+,
>
> Thanks for the response. Not sure of any names attached with their
> propaganda and nonsense. Id like write them and simply ask.....And the
> problem with
> this is?
> Let me know any additional info you may have. Thanks again.
>
> Yours in JMJ,
>
> JAD+
>
> --
> To unsubscribe, send ANY message to:
> faithandlife-unsubscribe@...
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 10:30:28 -0400
> To: faithandlife@...
> From: "St. Mary's Church, Delray Beach" <stmary@...>
> Subject: Re: [FaithandLife] No way APA webiste
> Message-ID: <42EA3D84.5030309@...>
>
> --------------050200020704040405090202
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>
> It appears this all comes out of one place. Doing background on the
> websites indicates it all comes from one person, who also does the
> website for an REC congregation. Certainly there are others who perhaps
> agree with this person. Many REC folk have disavowed this "stealth" type
> of dis-information (Drew+ said so just last week and the Bishops have
> condemned it). Cowards they are and would rather inflame things by
> hurling "accusations" as opposed to trying to get to know us.
>
> We could learn alot from JC Ryle and Charles Lowder (One of my heroes
> BTW and founder of my order) if we link arm and arm and get to know one
> another "face to face," which of course was the whole point of the joint
> Synod, rather than an occasion to take pictures and distort what was
> going on.
>
> Erich+
>
> JADAGENCY@... wrote:
>
>>Who are these people? Why don't they come out of hiding? Theres a
>>"Link"
>>to post, but no Contact page for the people who put out this website.
>>
>>
>>Yours in JMJ,
>>
>>JAD+
>>
>>--
>>To unsubscribe, send ANY message to:
>>faithandlife-unsubscribe@...
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>No virus found in this incoming message.
>>Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
>>Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.9.6/59 - Release Date: 07/27/2005
>>
>>
>
> --------------050200020704040405090202
> Content-Type: text/plain; x-avg=cert; charset=us-ascii
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
> Content-Disposition: inline
> Content-Description: "AVG certification"
>
> No virus found in this outgoing message.
> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
> Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.9.6/59 - Release Date: 07/27/2005
>
> --------------050200020704040405090202--
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 11:13:00 -0400
> To: <faithandlife@...>
> From: "Michael Ward" <mward@...>
> Subject: RE: [FaithandLife] No way APA webiste
> Message-ID: <C952E09E1C13F74FA9B0ACEF856928D004EC55@...>
>
> I still think it was a good picture of Paul+ and Ray+!!
>
> MLW+
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: St. Mary's Church, Delray Beach [mailto:stmary@...]=20
> Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 10:30 AM
> To: faithandlife@...
> Subject: Re: [FaithandLife] No way APA webiste
>
> It appears this all comes out of one place. Doing background on the=20
> websites indicates it all comes from one person, who also does the=20
> website for an REC congregation. Certainly there are others who perhaps=20
> agree with this person. Many REC folk have disavowed this "stealth" type =
>
> of dis-information (Drew+ said so just last week and the Bishops have=20
> condemned it). Cowards they are and would rather inflame things by=20
> hurling "accusations" as opposed to trying to get to know us.
>
> We could learn alot from JC Ryle and Charles Lowder (One of my heroes=20
> BTW and founder of my order) if we link arm and arm and get to know one=20
> another "face to face," which of course was the whole point of the joint =
>
> Synod, rather than an occasion to take pictures and distort what was=20
> going on.
>
> Erich+
>
> JADAGENCY@... wrote:
>
>>Who are these people? Why don't they come out of hiding? Theres a =
> "Link"
>
>>to post, but no Contact page for the people who put out this website. =
>
>>=20
>>=20
>>Yours in JMJ,
>>=20
>>JAD+
>>
>>--
>>To unsubscribe, send ANY message to: =
> faithandlife-unsubscribe@...
>>
>>
>> =20
>>
>>------------------------------------------------------------------------=
>
>>
>>No virus found in this incoming message.
>>Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
>>Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.9.6/59 - Release Date: =
> 07/27/2005
>> =20
>>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 11:10:17 EDT
> To: faithandlife@...
> From: JADAGENCY@...
> Subject: Re: [FaithandLife] No way APA webiste
> Message-ID: <c0.2d77180e.301ba0d9@...>
>
> -------------------------------1122649817
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>
> MLW+,
>
> Ha...yes some good comes out of everything I guess.
>
>
> Yours in JMJ,
>
> JAD+
>
> --
> To unsubscribe, send ANY message to:
> faithandlife-unsubscribe@...
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 11:22:18 EDT
> To: faithandlife@...
> From: GMSpencer@...
> Subject: Re: [FaithandLife] No way APA webiste
> Message-ID: <1fc.69f0639.301ba3aa@...>
>
> --part1_1fc.69f0639.301ba3aa_boundary
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>
> In a message dated 7/29/05 10:30:39 AM, stmary@... writes:
>
>>
>> We could learn alot from JC Ryle and Charles Lowder (One of my heroes
>> BTW and founder of my order)
>>
>
> Dear Father Eric,
> My main concern about JC Ryle is that what I have read by him has been
> aggressively polemical and often just historically incorrect. He seems to
> have been
> a sort of populist preacher.
>
> To add to your praise of Drew for his equanimity, I will add that he very
> specifically stated that he rejects Zwingli's memorialism.
> Fr. Glenn
>
> --
> To unsubscribe, send ANY message to:
> faithandlife-unsubscribe@...
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 23:33:25 -0700 (PDT)
> To: faith life <faithandlife@...>
> From: charles scott <crscottblu@...>
> Subject: TG ITS FRIDAY FUNNY TIME
> Message-ID: <20050729063325.82448.qmail@...>
>
> --0-2057810755-1122618805=:81810
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
>
> Hearing on a Funny Friday
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> An elderly gentleman of 85 feared his wife was getting hard of hearing.
>
> So one day he called her doctor to make an appointment to have her
>
> hearing checked. The Doctor made an appointment for a hearing test in
>
> two weeks, and meanwhile there's a simple informal test the husband
>
> could do to give the doctor some idea of the state of her problem.
>
> "Here's what you do," said the doctor. "Start out about 40 feet away
>
> from her, and in a normal, speaking tone see if she hears you. If not,
>
> go to 30 feet, then 20 feet, and so on until you get a response."
>
>
>
> That evening, the wife is in the kitchen cooking dinner, and he's in the
> living room. He says to himself, "I'm about 40 feet away, let's see what
> happens."
>
>
>
> Then in a normal tone he asks, 'Honey, what's for supper?" No response.
>
>
>
> So the husband moved to the other end of the room, about 30 feet from
>
> his wife and repeats, "Honey, what's for supper?" Still no response.
>
> Next he moves into the dining room where he is about 20 feet from his
>
> wife and asks, "Honey, what's for supper?" Again he gets no response.
>
>
>
> So he walks up to the kitchen door, only 10 feet away. "Honey, what's
>
> for supper?" Again there is no response.
>
> So he walks right up behind her. "Honey, what's for supper?"
>
> "Damn it Earl, for the fifth time, CHICKEN!"
>
>
>
>
>
> The sequel to that story is a typical conversation in my own household.
>
>
>
> Virginia: You'll never guess what happened today!
>
>
>
> Charles: I'm sorry, between the TV and the running water, I couldn't
> hear.
>
>
>
> Virginia: What
>
>
>
> Charles What
>
>
>
> Virginia What
>
>
>
> Charles What
>
>
>
> Virginia What
>
> Charles, turning off the water and the TV asks, "I'm sorry, what did you
> say?"
>
>
>
> Virginia: "I don't remember."
>
>
>
> --
> To unsubscribe, send ANY message to:
> faithandlife-unsubscribe@...
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 11:10:52 -0400
> To: faithandlife@...
> From: "Fr. Don Alley" <curate01@...>
> Subject: Bp Brown
> Message-ID: <BAY107-F14689573DDF6E5C55F5E3DDACE0@...>
>
> Brothers+
>
> Someone mentioned a few days ago a Bishop Brown in reference to the BCP.
> Can anyone provide a reference for me to seek? Not sure who Bp Brown is.
>
> Thanx & blessings,
>
> Don Alley
>
> _________________________________________________________________
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> ------------------------------
>
> End of faithandlife Digest
> ***********************************
>