... And yet the competent history of the period suggest anything but (bias I mean). If you choose to repair to a Presbyterian hall of a Sunday that is your business-there is (for ill or good) no Established Church here. Ryle may not have described himself as an extremist (and yes I've known a few in my day too) but if his ideology had been allowed free reign the Church of England as we know it (Lambeth Quadrilateral and all that) would not exist today. That he was a kindly man is not the issue. The issue is: Are you a Catholci or not? Simple as that. Why does a priest object to being called 'Father'? A bit more formality might make some things perhaps more seemly. Blessings. GDVW+ > Date: Thu Jul 28 20:25:32 2005 > > > <SNIP> > > + Now as to Bishop Ryle and the 'discussion of election': One > must again use the History of the pweriod correctly and see Ryle for what > he was. Ryle (by his own mouth) was an extremist who remained the Church > of England because like many of his 'integrity'(what a wonderful word) he > believed that he could 'turn things round'. > > DC: A most biased statement -- huge surprise. Bishop Ryle almost > certainly never described himself as an extremist (DUH! I have known > many extremists in my life over all kinds of things and they all > tended to have one thing in common -- they saw themselves as > moderates!). The following words well describe the godly Bishop's > view of the CofE: > > I am deeply convinced of the excellency of my own church -- I would > even say, if it were not a proud boast -- its superiority over any > other church upon earth. I see more for episcopacy in the Bible than > I do for any other form of church government. I consider the > historical fact that there were bishops inmost of the professing > churches at the beginning of Christianity deserves much weight. I > believe that it is far wiser to have a regular, settled liturgy, for > the use of the congregations, than to make a minister's frames and > feelings for the tone of its regular prayers. I think that endowments > settled and established by law are a way of paying ministers far > preferable to the voluntary system. I am satisfied that, well > administered, the Church of England is more calculated to help souls > to heaven than any church on earth. . . . -- The Rt. Rev. James > Charles Ryle, D.D., Knots Untied: Being Plain Statements on Disputed > Points in Religion From the Standpoint of an Evangelical Churchman > (London: Charles J. Thynne, 1874; reprint, Moscow, ID: Charles Nolan, > 2000), 243. > > Those hardly sound like the words, Gordon, of a man who is holding his > nose, dissatisfied with his ecclesiastical house. In point of fact, > the extremist label also won't stick -- consider the following > incident: > > Samuel Wilberforce, the Bishop of Oxford, was ecstatic when he > observed Ryle and Father Charles Lowder, an extreme Ritualist of St. > George's-in-the-East, London, walking arm and arm and in deep > conversation. The incident was widely reported in the Church press > and the reaction of the ultra-Protestants was very different. They > castigated him and accused him of 'Treason'. His simple reply was > that Evangelicals have no monopoly of grace, and the surest way to > dispel religious prejudice was to put two antagonists together and let > them look at each other face to face. He was convinced that 'if some > of us could have a quiet walk or spend a quiet evening with some > Churchmen we now dislike, we should be surprised when we got up the > next morning to find what a different feeling we had about them, we > should say, "I like that man, though I do not agree with him." Great > is the power of the face, the voice, they eye.' -- Eric Russell, That > Man of Granite With the Heart of a Child: A New Biography of J.C. > Ryle, with forward by J.I. Packer (Fern, Ross-shire: Christian Focus, > 2001), 130. > > > > Ryle always interpreted the > Canons (which are enforceable in the courts of the land to this day) in > the most extreme Low Church way. It would be safe to say that he was > certainly a crypto Calvinist > > DC: Bishop Ryle was not crypto about his Calvinism (neither am I); I > would suggest better a crypto Calvinist and Papal Savant! > > and was a fellow traveller with the > Protestant Truth Society ideology (that is independent of the Church of > England) still extant in the Strand near St Dunstan's In The West in the > City(You won't find any Rosaries there). > > DC: No Rosaries? Sounds like a lovely place! > > History suggests on > balance that to a great degree his appointment to Liverpool (his was the > first appointment to the new See) was in large part a kind ofpolitical > compromise much beloved of the English who in their Churchmanship can be > very schizophrenic at times(:). > > DC: His appointment to Liverpool was made by the godly Queen > Victoria, who was concerned about the inroads that the Oxford Movement > was making. > > He seemed to have had little use > for the C of E as a branch of the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, > save when it suited his purposes and he and his group (ala the Irish > Church Missions Society in Bachelor's Walk, Dublin Ireland to this day) > made 'anti-Popery (The Red Whore of Babylon and all that) a foundation > stone of their theological posture. > To us today this seems nonsense but it > was real enough and Anglican priests were actually (I am sorry to say) > actually imprisoned for maintaining the Catholic Faith that comes to us > from the Apostles (See: Fr Mackenochie: Martyr of Ritualism for the gory > details). > > DC: Right. Of course, the Roman Catholics were always models of irenicy: > > Early in his episcopate the Bishop and Mrs. Ryle had been attacked by > a mob of Irish Catholics as they left St. Michael's in the Hamlet, > where he had been preaching to a large congregation of working-class > men and women. Stones were thrown at his carriage but no one was hurt > and the Bishop paid little attention to the incident. -- Russell, 181. > > Gordon, given to your reference to the Oxford Martyrs as the "Unholy > Trio" and your apparent approval of their burning, I guess you would > say the mob was too mild. > > It is ironic that Liverpool today is an RC Archdiocese > (mostly Irish) and the RC cathedral (a hideous 1960's pile) is on one hill > while the Anglican Cathedral (a not unattractive early 20th c building > with an excellent organ)is on the other. The late Anglican Bishop David > Shepherd and the RC Archbishop Warlock(:) were good friends and within the > boundaries of their day did much to put into practice a real 'ecumenism on > the ground' which I am sure has Ryle whirling in his grave. >> Ryle's sin (though not canonically punishable as it happened > in Scotland where the law is different) is of course ,the > sorry business, of his writing to the local Scottish > Episcopal Church asking if the SEC believed (as it rightly > does) in baptismal regeneration. When he got the reply he > avoided the local parish and repaired to the local Kirk for > the duration of his holiday stay. Much unfortunate publicity > at the time but that was then and this is now. > > > DC: Gordon, although it certainly not draw any publicity, I might be > compelled to attend a Presbyterian Church should I find myself in your > locale on a Sunday Morning. > > He was no friend of Ritualists/Anglo > Catholics(today the North is a bastion of Anglo Catholicism > compared to some parts of England) but I cannot recall any > great physical violence against them as happened in London > for example after one of the 'preachers' harangued a mob. > Hope this helps. Blessings. GDVW+ > > DC: See the aforementioned incident with the Irish Catholic mob. That > was hardly unique. > > SDG! > > Drew > > > > -- > The Rev. Charles A. Collins, Jr., S.B.R. > Assisting Presbyter, New Israel Reformed Episcopal Church, Charleston, SC > > 289 Hastings Dr. > Goose Creek, SC 29445 > Home: (843) 832-6408 > E-mail: drew.collins@... > AIM: DrewCollinsSC > Weblogs: http://www.palmettoanglican.blogspot.com > http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=cranmer > > ". . .if you are arguing with God, you are permitted, but you are > wasting your time. You are not wasting His time, but you are wasting > your time!" -- The Most Rev.Henry Luke Orombi, Archbishop of the > Church of Uganda > > -- > To unsubscribe, send ANY message to: > faithandlife-unsubscribe@... > > ---------------------------------------------------- Catholic Financial Services Send and Receive all online Payments and Donations No Merchant Account Required! https://www.catholicfs.org/