> Father: Surely you must know the meaning: We have no Established Church here as exists in England-tho no where else in the Anglican world. Blessings. GDVW+ > > What do you mean by, "there is . . . no Established Church here"? > > Just wondering. > > MLW+ > > -----Original Message----- > From: The Rev GDVWiebe SSC.,PhD [mailto:gdvw@...] > Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 6:14 PM > To: faithandlife@... > Subject: [FaithandLife] Bp Ryle , Election and Canonical Offense (sic) and > Bias? > > ... And yet the competent history of the period suggest anything but > (bias I mean). If you choose to repair to a Presbyterian hall of a Sunday > that is your business-there is (for ill or good) no Established Church > here. Ryle may not have described himself as an extremist (and yes I've > known a few in my day too) but if his ideology had been allowed free > reign the Church of England as we know it (Lambeth Quadrilateral and all > that) would not exist today. That he was a kindly man is not the issue. > The issue is: Are you a Catholci or not? Simple as that. Why does a > priest object to being called 'Father'? A bit more formality might make > some things perhaps more seemly. Blessings. GDVW+ >> Date: Thu Jul 28 20:25:32 2005 >> >> >> <SNIP> >> >> + Now as to Bishop Ryle and the 'discussion of election': >> One >> must again use the History of the pweriod correctly and see Ryle for >> what >> he was. Ryle (by his own mouth) was an extremist who remained the Church >> of England because like many of his 'integrity'(what a wonderful word) >> he >> believed that he could 'turn things round'. >> >> DC: A most biased statement -- huge surprise. Bishop Ryle almost >> certainly never described himself as an extremist (DUH! I have known >> many extremists in my life over all kinds of things and they all >> tended to have one thing in common -- they saw themselves as >> moderates!). The following words well describe the godly Bishop's >> view of the CofE: >> >> I am deeply convinced of the excellency of my own church -- I would >> even say, if it were not a proud boast -- its superiority over any >> other church upon earth. I see more for episcopacy in the Bible than >> I do for any other form of church government. I consider the >> historical fact that there were bishops inmost of the professing >> churches at the beginning of Christianity deserves much weight. I >> believe that it is far wiser to have a regular, settled liturgy, for >> the use of the congregations, than to make a minister's frames and >> feelings for the tone of its regular prayers. I think that endowments >> settled and established by law are a way of paying ministers far >> preferable to the voluntary system. I am satisfied that, well >> administered, the Church of England is more calculated to help souls >> to heaven than any church on earth. . . . -- The Rt. Rev. James >> Charles Ryle, D.D., Knots Untied: Being Plain Statements on Disputed >> Points in Religion From the Standpoint of an Evangelical Churchman >> (London: Charles J. Thynne, 1874; reprint, Moscow, ID: Charles Nolan, >> 2000), 243. >> >> Those hardly sound like the words, Gordon, of a man who is holding his >> nose, dissatisfied with his ecclesiastical house. In point of fact, >> the extremist label also won't stick -- consider the following >> incident: >> >> Samuel Wilberforce, the Bishop of Oxford, was ecstatic when he >> observed Ryle and Father Charles Lowder, an extreme Ritualist of St. >> George's-in-the-East, London, walking arm and arm and in deep >> conversation. The incident was widely reported in the Church press >> and the reaction of the ultra-Protestants was very different. They >> castigated him and accused him of 'Treason'. His simple reply was >> that Evangelicals have no monopoly of grace, and the surest way to >> dispel religious prejudice was to put two antagonists together and let >> them look at each other face to face. He was convinced that 'if some >> of us could have a quiet walk or spend a quiet evening with some >> Churchmen we now dislike, we should be surprised when we got up the >> next morning to find what a different feeling we had about them, we >> should say, "I like that man, though I do not agree with him." Great >> is the power of the face, the voice, they eye.' -- Eric Russell, That >> Man of Granite With the Heart of a Child: A New Biography of J.C. >> Ryle, with forward by J.I. Packer (Fern, Ross-shire: Christian Focus, >> 2001), 130. >> >> >> >> Ryle always interpreted the >> Canons (which are enforceable in the courts of the land to this day) in >> the most extreme Low Church way. It would be safe to say that he was >> certainly a crypto Calvinist >> >> DC: Bishop Ryle was not crypto about his Calvinism (neither am I); I >> would suggest better a crypto Calvinist and Papal Savant! >> >> and was a fellow traveller with the >> Protestant Truth Society ideology (that is independent of the Church of >> England) still extant in the Strand near St Dunstan's In The West in the >> City(You won't find any Rosaries there). >> >> DC: No Rosaries? Sounds like a lovely place! >> >> History suggests on >> balance that to a great degree his appointment to Liverpool (his was the >> first appointment to the new See) was in large part a kind ofpolitical >> compromise much beloved of the English who in their Churchmanship can be >> very schizophrenic at times(:). >> >> DC: His appointment to Liverpool was made by the godly Queen >> Victoria, who was concerned about the inroads that the Oxford Movement >> was making. >> >> He seemed to have had little >> use >> for the C of E as a branch of the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic >> Church, >> save when it suited his purposes and he and his group (ala the Irish >> Church Missions Society in Bachelor's Walk, Dublin Ireland to this day) >> made 'anti-Popery (The Red Whore of Babylon and all that) a foundation >> stone of their theological posture. >> To us today this seems nonsense but it >> was real enough and Anglican priests were actually (I am sorry to say) >> actually imprisoned for maintaining the Catholic Faith that comes to us >> from the Apostles (See: Fr Mackenochie: Martyr of Ritualism for the gory >> details). >> >> DC: Right. Of course, the Roman Catholics were always models of >> irenicy: >> >> Early in his episcopate the Bishop and Mrs. Ryle had been attacked by >> a mob of Irish Catholics as they left St. Michael's in the Hamlet, >> where he had been preaching to a large congregation of working-class >> men and women. Stones were thrown at his carriage but no one was hurt >> and the Bishop paid little attention to the incident. -- Russell, 181. >> >> Gordon, given to your reference to the Oxford Martyrs as the "Unholy >> Trio" and your apparent approval of their burning, I guess you would >> say the mob was too mild. >> >> It is ironic that Liverpool today is an RC Archdiocese >> (mostly Irish) and the RC cathedral (a hideous 1960's pile) is on one >> hill >> while the Anglican Cathedral (a not unattractive early 20th c building >> with an excellent organ)is on the other. The late Anglican Bishop David >> Shepherd and the RC Archbishop Warlock(:) were good friends and within >> the >> boundaries of their day did much to put into practice a real 'ecumenism >> on >> the ground' which I am sure has Ryle whirling in his grave. >>> Ryle's sin (though not canonically punishable as it >>> happened >> in Scotland where the law is different) is of course ,the >> sorry business, of his writing to the local Scottish >> Episcopal Church asking if the SEC believed (as it rightly >> does) in baptismal regeneration. When he got the reply he >> avoided the local parish and repaired to the local Kirk for >> the duration of his holiday stay. Much unfortunate publicity >> at the time but that was then and this is now. >> >> >> DC: Gordon, although it certainly not draw any publicity, I might be >> compelled to attend a Presbyterian Church should I find myself in your >> locale on a Sunday Morning. >> >> He was no friend of Ritualists/Anglo >> Catholics(today the North is a bastion of Anglo Catholicism >> compared to some parts of England) but I cannot recall any >> great physical violence against them as happened in London >> for example after one of the 'preachers' harangued a mob. >> Hope this helps. Blessings. GDVW+ >> >> DC: See the aforementioned incident with the Irish Catholic mob. That >> was hardly unique. >> >> SDG! >> >> Drew >> >> >> >> -- >> The Rev. Charles A. Collins, Jr., S.B.R. >> Assisting Presbyter, New Israel Reformed Episcopal Church, Charleston, >> SC >> >> 289 Hastings Dr. >> Goose Creek, SC 29445 >> Home: (843) 832-6408 >> E-mail: drew.collins@... >> AIM: DrewCollinsSC >> Weblogs: http://www.palmettoanglican.blogspot.com >> http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=cranmer >> >> ". . .if you are arguing with God, you are permitted, but you are >> wasting your time. You are not wasting His time, but you are wasting >> your time!" -- The Most Rev.Henry Luke Orombi, Archbishop of the >> Church of Uganda >> >> -- >> To unsubscribe, send ANY message to: >> faithandlife-unsubscribe@... >> >> > > > > ---------------------------------------------------- > Catholic Financial Services > Send and Receive all online Payments and Donations > No Merchant Account Required! > https://www.catholicfs.org/ > > -- > To unsubscribe, send ANY message to: > faithandlife-unsubscribe@... > > -- > To unsubscribe, send ANY message to: > faithandlife-unsubscribe@... > > ---------------------------------------------------- Catholic Financial Services Send and Receive all online Payments and Donations No Merchant Account Required! https://www.catholicfs.org/