Fr W:
I'm sorry. When you said "here" I wasn't thinking quite that big! You're
right: no Established Church here in the USA!
Sorry, again; it's been a long day....
MLW+
-----Original Message-----
From: The Rev GDVWiebe SSC.,PhD [mailto:gdvw@...]
Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 6:29 PM
To: faithandlife@...
Subject: [FaithandLife] ....by Law Established...'
> Father: Surely you must know the meaning: We have no Established Church
here as exists in England-tho no where else in the Anglican world.
Blessings. GDVW+
>
> What do you mean by, "there is . . . no Established Church here"?
>
> Just wondering.
>
> MLW+
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: The Rev GDVWiebe SSC.,PhD [mailto:gdvw@...]
> Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 6:14 PM
> To: faithandlife@...
> Subject: [FaithandLife] Bp Ryle , Election and Canonical Offense (sic) and
> Bias?
>
> ... And yet the competent history of the period suggest anything but
> (bias I mean). If you choose to repair to a Presbyterian hall of a Sunday
> that is your business-there is (for ill or good) no Established Church
> here. Ryle may not have described himself as an extremist (and yes I've
> known a few in my day too) but if his ideology had been allowed free
> reign the Church of England as we know it (Lambeth Quadrilateral and all
> that) would not exist today. That he was a kindly man is not the issue.
> The issue is: Are you a Catholci or not? Simple as that. Why does a
> priest object to being called 'Father'? A bit more formality might make
> some things perhaps more seemly. Blessings. GDVW+
>> Date: Thu Jul 28 20:25:32 2005
>>
>>
>> <SNIP>
>>
>> + Now as to Bishop Ryle and the 'discussion of election':
>> One
>> must again use the History of the pweriod correctly and see Ryle for
>> what
>> he was. Ryle (by his own mouth) was an extremist who remained the Church
>> of England because like many of his 'integrity'(what a wonderful word)
>> he
>> believed that he could 'turn things round'.
>>
>> DC: A most biased statement -- huge surprise. Bishop Ryle almost
>> certainly never described himself as an extremist (DUH! I have known
>> many extremists in my life over all kinds of things and they all
>> tended to have one thing in common -- they saw themselves as
>> moderates!). The following words well describe the godly Bishop's
>> view of the CofE:
>>
>> I am deeply convinced of the excellency of my own church -- I would
>> even say, if it were not a proud boast -- its superiority over any
>> other church upon earth. I see more for episcopacy in the Bible than
>> I do for any other form of church government. I consider the
>> historical fact that there were bishops inmost of the professing
>> churches at the beginning of Christianity deserves much weight. I
>> believe that it is far wiser to have a regular, settled liturgy, for
>> the use of the congregations, than to make a minister's frames and
>> feelings for the tone of its regular prayers. I think that endowments
>> settled and established by law are a way of paying ministers far
>> preferable to the voluntary system. I am satisfied that, well
>> administered, the Church of England is more calculated to help souls
>> to heaven than any church on earth. . . . -- The Rt. Rev. James
>> Charles Ryle, D.D., Knots Untied: Being Plain Statements on Disputed
>> Points in Religion From the Standpoint of an Evangelical Churchman
>> (London: Charles J. Thynne, 1874; reprint, Moscow, ID: Charles Nolan,
>> 2000), 243.
>>
>> Those hardly sound like the words, Gordon, of a man who is holding his
>> nose, dissatisfied with his ecclesiastical house. In point of fact,
>> the extremist label also won't stick -- consider the following
>> incident:
>>
>> Samuel Wilberforce, the Bishop of Oxford, was ecstatic when he
>> observed Ryle and Father Charles Lowder, an extreme Ritualist of St.
>> George's-in-the-East, London, walking arm and arm and in deep
>> conversation. The incident was widely reported in the Church press
>> and the reaction of the ultra-Protestants was very different. They
>> castigated him and accused him of 'Treason'. His simple reply was
>> that Evangelicals have no monopoly of grace, and the surest way to
>> dispel religious prejudice was to put two antagonists together and let
>> them look at each other face to face. He was convinced that 'if some
>> of us could have a quiet walk or spend a quiet evening with some
>> Churchmen we now dislike, we should be surprised when we got up the
>> next morning to find what a different feeling we had about them, we
>> should say, "I like that man, though I do not agree with him." Great
>> is the power of the face, the voice, they eye.' -- Eric Russell, That
>> Man of Granite With the Heart of a Child: A New Biography of J.C.
>> Ryle, with forward by J.I. Packer (Fern, Ross-shire: Christian Focus,
>> 2001), 130.
>>
>>
>>
>> Ryle always interpreted the
>> Canons (which are enforceable in the courts of the land to this day) in
>> the most extreme Low Church way. It would be safe to say that he was
>> certainly a crypto Calvinist
>>
>> DC: Bishop Ryle was not crypto about his Calvinism (neither am I); I
>> would suggest better a crypto Calvinist and Papal Savant!
>>
>> and was a fellow traveller with the
>> Protestant Truth Society ideology (that is independent of the Church of
>> England) still extant in the Strand near St Dunstan's In The West in the
>> City(You won't find any Rosaries there).
>>
>> DC: No Rosaries? Sounds like a lovely place!
>>
>> History suggests on
>> balance that to a great degree his appointment to Liverpool (his was the
>> first appointment to the new See) was in large part a kind ofpolitical
>> compromise much beloved of the English who in their Churchmanship can be
>> very schizophrenic at times(:).
>>
>> DC: His appointment to Liverpool was made by the godly Queen
>> Victoria, who was concerned about the inroads that the Oxford Movement
>> was making.
>>
>> He seemed to have had little
>> use
>> for the C of E as a branch of the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic
>> Church,
>> save when it suited his purposes and he and his group (ala the Irish
>> Church Missions Society in Bachelor's Walk, Dublin Ireland to this day)
>> made 'anti-Popery (The Red Whore of Babylon and all that) a foundation
>> stone of their theological posture.
>> To us today this seems nonsense but it
>> was real enough and Anglican priests were actually (I am sorry to say)
>> actually imprisoned for maintaining the Catholic Faith that comes to us
>> from the Apostles (See: Fr Mackenochie: Martyr of Ritualism for the gory
>> details).
>>
>> DC: Right. Of course, the Roman Catholics were always models of
>> irenicy:
>>
>> Early in his episcopate the Bishop and Mrs. Ryle had been attacked by
>> a mob of Irish Catholics as they left St. Michael's in the Hamlet,
>> where he had been preaching to a large congregation of working-class
>> men and women. Stones were thrown at his carriage but no one was hurt
>> and the Bishop paid little attention to the incident. -- Russell, 181.
>>
>> Gordon, given to your reference to the Oxford Martyrs as the "Unholy
>> Trio" and your apparent approval of their burning, I guess you would
>> say the mob was too mild.
>>
>> It is ironic that Liverpool today is an RC Archdiocese
>> (mostly Irish) and the RC cathedral (a hideous 1960's pile) is on one
>> hill
>> while the Anglican Cathedral (a not unattractive early 20th c building
>> with an excellent organ)is on the other. The late Anglican Bishop David
>> Shepherd and the RC Archbishop Warlock(:) were good friends and within
>> the
>> boundaries of their day did much to put into practice a real 'ecumenism
>> on
>> the ground' which I am sure has Ryle whirling in his grave.
>>> Ryle's sin (though not canonically punishable as it
>>> happened
>> in Scotland where the law is different) is of course ,the
>> sorry business, of his writing to the local Scottish
>> Episcopal Church asking if the SEC believed (as it rightly
>> does) in baptismal regeneration. When he got the reply he
>> avoided the local parish and repaired to the local Kirk for
>> the duration of his holiday stay. Much unfortunate publicity
>> at the time but that was then and this is now.
>>
>>
>> DC: Gordon, although it certainly not draw any publicity, I might be
>> compelled to attend a Presbyterian Church should I find myself in your
>> locale on a Sunday Morning.
>>
>> He was no friend of Ritualists/Anglo
>> Catholics(today the North is a bastion of Anglo Catholicism
>> compared to some parts of England) but I cannot recall any
>> great physical violence against them as happened in London
>> for example after one of the 'preachers' harangued a mob.
>> Hope this helps. Blessings. GDVW+
>>
>> DC: See the aforementioned incident with the Irish Catholic mob. That
>> was hardly unique.
>>
>> SDG!
>>
>> Drew
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> The Rev. Charles A. Collins, Jr., S.B.R.
>> Assisting Presbyter, New Israel Reformed Episcopal Church, Charleston,
>> SC
>>
>> 289 Hastings Dr.
>> Goose Creek, SC 29445
>> Home: (843) 832-6408
>> E-mail: drew.collins@...
>> AIM: DrewCollinsSC
>> Weblogs: http://www.palmettoanglican.blogspot.com
>> http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=cranmer
>>
>> ". . .if you are arguing with God, you are permitted, but you are
>> wasting your time. You are not wasting His time, but you are wasting
>> your time!" -- The Most Rev.Henry Luke Orombi, Archbishop of the
>> Church of Uganda
>>
>> --
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