> Fr W:Thanks. The days are longhere too, esp with the weather upheavals. People here say that if youdon't like the weather wait 3-4 hrs and it will change-well the changes to date today have all been, shall we say, less than adequate. Blessings. GDVW+ > > I'm sorry. When you said "here" I wasn't thinking quite that big! You're > right: no Established Church here in the USA! > > Sorry, again; it's been a long day.... > > MLW+ > > -----Original Message----- > From: The Rev GDVWiebe SSC.,PhD [mailto:gdvw@...] > Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 6:29 PM > To: faithandlife@... > Subject: [FaithandLife] ....by Law Established...' > >> Father: Surely you must know the meaning: We have no Established Church > here as exists in England-tho no where else in the Anglican world. > Blessings. GDVW+ >> >> What do you mean by, "there is . . . no Established Church here"? >> >> Just wondering. >> >> MLW+ >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: The Rev GDVWiebe SSC.,PhD [mailto:gdvw@...] >> Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 6:14 PM >> To: faithandlife@... >> Subject: [FaithandLife] Bp Ryle , Election and Canonical Offense (sic) >> and >> Bias? >> >> ... And yet the competent history of the period suggest anything but >> (bias I mean). If you choose to repair to a Presbyterian hall of a >> Sunday >> that is your business-there is (for ill or good) no Established Church >> here. Ryle may not have described himself as an extremist (and yes I've >> known a few in my day too) but if his ideology had been allowed free >> reign the Church of England as we know it (Lambeth Quadrilateral and all >> that) would not exist today. That he was a kindly man is not the issue. >> The issue is: Are you a Catholci or not? Simple as that. Why does a >> priest object to being called 'Father'? A bit more formality might make >> some things perhaps more seemly. Blessings. GDVW+ >>> Date: Thu Jul 28 20:25:32 2005 >>> >>> >>> <SNIP> >>> >>> + Now as to Bishop Ryle and the 'discussion of election': >>> One >>> must again use the History of the pweriod correctly and see Ryle for >>> what >>> he was. Ryle (by his own mouth) was an extremist who remained the >>> Church >>> of England because like many of his 'integrity'(what a wonderful word) >>> he >>> believed that he could 'turn things round'. >>> >>> DC: A most biased statement -- huge surprise. Bishop Ryle almost >>> certainly never described himself as an extremist (DUH! I have known >>> many extremists in my life over all kinds of things and they all >>> tended to have one thing in common -- they saw themselves as >>> moderates!). The following words well describe the godly Bishop's >>> view of the CofE: >>> >>> I am deeply convinced of the excellency of my own church -- I would >>> even say, if it were not a proud boast -- its superiority over any >>> other church upon earth. I see more for episcopacy in the Bible than >>> I do for any other form of church government. I consider the >>> historical fact that there were bishops inmost of the professing >>> churches at the beginning of Christianity deserves much weight. I >>> believe that it is far wiser to have a regular, settled liturgy, for >>> the use of the congregations, than to make a minister's frames and >>> feelings for the tone of its regular prayers. I think that endowments >>> settled and established by law are a way of paying ministers far >>> preferable to the voluntary system. I am satisfied that, well >>> administered, the Church of England is more calculated to help souls >>> to heaven than any church on earth. . . . -- The Rt. Rev. James >>> Charles Ryle, D.D., Knots Untied: Being Plain Statements on Disputed >>> Points in Religion From the Standpoint of an Evangelical Churchman >>> (London: Charles J. Thynne, 1874; reprint, Moscow, ID: Charles Nolan, >>> 2000), 243. >>> >>> Those hardly sound like the words, Gordon, of a man who is holding his >>> nose, dissatisfied with his ecclesiastical house. In point of fact, >>> the extremist label also won't stick -- consider the following >>> incident: >>> >>> Samuel Wilberforce, the Bishop of Oxford, was ecstatic when he >>> observed Ryle and Father Charles Lowder, an extreme Ritualist of St. >>> George's-in-the-East, London, walking arm and arm and in deep >>> conversation. The incident was widely reported in the Church press >>> and the reaction of the ultra-Protestants was very different. They >>> castigated him and accused him of 'Treason'. His simple reply was >>> that Evangelicals have no monopoly of grace, and the surest way to >>> dispel religious prejudice was to put two antagonists together and let >>> them look at each other face to face. He was convinced that 'if some >>> of us could have a quiet walk or spend a quiet evening with some >>> Churchmen we now dislike, we should be surprised when we got up the >>> next morning to find what a different feeling we had about them, we >>> should say, "I like that man, though I do not agree with him." Great >>> is the power of the face, the voice, they eye.' -- Eric Russell, That >>> Man of Granite With the Heart of a Child: A New Biography of J.C. >>> Ryle, with forward by J.I. Packer (Fern, Ross-shire: Christian Focus, >>> 2001), 130. >>> >>> >>> >>> Ryle always interpreted the >>> Canons (which are enforceable in the courts of the land to this day) in >>> the most extreme Low Church way. It would be safe to say that he was >>> certainly a crypto Calvinist >>> >>> DC: Bishop Ryle was not crypto about his Calvinism (neither am I); I >>> would suggest better a crypto Calvinist and Papal Savant! >>> >>> and was a fellow traveller with the >>> Protestant Truth Society ideology (that is independent of the Church of >>> England) still extant in the Strand near St Dunstan's In The West in >>> the >>> City(You won't find any Rosaries there). >>> >>> DC: No Rosaries? Sounds like a lovely place! >>> >>> History suggests on >>> balance that to a great degree his appointment to Liverpool (his was >>> the >>> first appointment to the new See) was in large part a kind ofpolitical >>> compromise much beloved of the English who in their Churchmanship can >>> be >>> very schizophrenic at times(:). >>> >>> DC: His appointment to Liverpool was made by the godly Queen >>> Victoria, who was concerned about the inroads that the Oxford Movement >>> was making. >>> >>> He seemed to have had little >>> use >>> for the C of E as a branch of the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic >>> Church, >>> save when it suited his purposes and he and his group (ala the Irish >>> Church Missions Society in Bachelor's Walk, Dublin Ireland to this day) >>> made 'anti-Popery (The Red Whore of Babylon and all that) a foundation >>> stone of their theological posture. >>> To us today this seems nonsense but it >>> was real enough and Anglican priests were actually (I am sorry to say) >>> actually imprisoned for maintaining the Catholic Faith that comes to >>> us >>> from the Apostles (See: Fr Mackenochie: Martyr of Ritualism for the >>> gory >>> details). >>> >>> DC: Right. Of course, the Roman Catholics were always models of >>> irenicy: >>> >>> Early in his episcopate the Bishop and Mrs. Ryle had been attacked by >>> a mob of Irish Catholics as they left St. Michael's in the Hamlet, >>> where he had been preaching to a large congregation of working-class >>> men and women. Stones were thrown at his carriage but no one was hurt >>> and the Bishop paid little attention to the incident. -- Russell, 181. >>> >>> Gordon, given to your reference to the Oxford Martyrs as the "Unholy >>> Trio" and your apparent approval of their burning, I guess you would >>> say the mob was too mild. >>> >>> It is ironic that Liverpool today is an RC Archdiocese >>> (mostly Irish) and the RC cathedral (a hideous 1960's pile) is on one >>> hill >>> while the Anglican Cathedral (a not unattractive early 20th c building >>> with an excellent organ)is on the other. The late Anglican Bishop David >>> Shepherd and the RC Archbishop Warlock(:) were good friends and within >>> the >>> boundaries of their day did much to put into practice a real 'ecumenism >>> on >>> the ground' which I am sure has Ryle whirling in his grave. >>>> Ryle's sin (though not canonically punishable as it >>>> happened >>> in Scotland where the law is different) is of course ,the >>> sorry business, of his writing to the local Scottish >>> Episcopal Church asking if the SEC believed (as it rightly >>> does) in baptismal regeneration. When he got the reply he >>> avoided the local parish and repaired to the local Kirk for >>> the duration of his holiday stay. Much unfortunate publicity >>> at the time but that was then and this is now. >>> >>> >>> DC: Gordon, although it certainly not draw any publicity, I might be >>> compelled to attend a Presbyterian Church should I find myself in your >>> locale on a Sunday Morning. >>> >>> He was no friend of Ritualists/Anglo >>> Catholics(today the North is a bastion of Anglo Catholicism >>> compared to some parts of England) but I cannot recall any >>> great physical violence against them as happened in London >>> for example after one of the 'preachers' harangued a mob. >>> Hope this helps. Blessings. GDVW+ >>> >>> DC: See the aforementioned incident with the Irish Catholic mob. That >>> was hardly unique. >>> >>> SDG! >>> >>> Drew >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> The Rev. Charles A. Collins, Jr., S.B.R. >>> Assisting Presbyter, New Israel Reformed Episcopal Church, Charleston, >>> SC >>> >>> 289 Hastings Dr. >>> Goose Creek, SC 29445 >>> Home: (843) 832-6408 >>> E-mail: drew.collins@... >>> AIM: DrewCollinsSC >>> Weblogs: http://www.palmettoanglican.blogspot.com >>> http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=cranmer >>> >>> ". . .if you are arguing with God, you are permitted, but you are >>> wasting your time. You are not wasting His time, but you are wasting >>> your time!" -- The Most Rev.Henry Luke Orombi, Archbishop of the >>> Church of Uganda >>> >>> -- >>> To unsubscribe, send ANY message to: >>> faithandlife-unsubscribe@... >>> >>> >> >> >> >> ---------------------------------------------------- >> Catholic Financial Services >> Send and Receive all online Payments and Donations >> No Merchant Account Required! >> https://www.catholicfs.org/ >> >> -- >> To unsubscribe, send ANY message to: >> faithandlife-unsubscribe@... >> >> -- >> To unsubscribe, send ANY message to: >> faithandlife-unsubscribe@... >> >> > > > > ---------------------------------------------------- > Catholic Financial Services > Send and Receive all online Payments and Donations > No Merchant Account Required! > https://www.catholicfs.org/ > > -- > To unsubscribe, send ANY message to: > faithandlife-unsubscribe@... > > -- > To unsubscribe, send ANY message to: > faithandlife-unsubscribe@... > > ---------------------------------------------------- Catholic Financial Services Send and Receive all online Payments and Donations No Merchant Account Required! https://www.catholicfs.org/