May I ask one of our kind REC brethren send me the most current address and
phone number for the bookstore that has the Tartisano text, please?
blessings,
Chip+
Original Message:
-----------------
From: faithandlife-digest-help@...
Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 22:26:32 +0000
To: faithandlife@...
Subject: faithandlife Digest 29 Jul 2005 22:26:32 -0000 Issue 819
faithandlife Digest 29 Jul 2005 22:26:32 -0000 Issue 819
Topics (messages 8416 through 8445):
Who performs the work in a sacrament?
8416 by: charles scott
8428 by: GMSpencer.aol.com
Re: the meaning of the new birth
8417 by: Michael Ward
8418 by: Michael Ward
8419 by: Mark Clavier+
8424 by: Michael Ward
8425 by: GMSpencer.aol.com
8426 by: GMSpencer.aol.com
8427 by: GMSpencer.aol.com
8429 by: Mark Clavier+
8430 by: Mark Clavier+
8431 by: GMSpencer.aol.com
8432 by: GMSpencer.aol.com
8437 by: William H. Perkins, Jr.
8439 by: JADAGENCY.aol.com
8440 by: William H. Perkins, Jr.
8441 by: GMSpencer.aol.com
8442 by: William H. Perkins, Jr.
BICKNELL ON BAPTISM
8420 by: charles scott
8423 by: Frank Warren
8433 by: GMSpencer.aol.com
8434 by: Frank Warren
the meaning of the new birth and spiritual gifts
8421 by: charles scott
Re: No way APA webiste
8422 by: charles scott
8435 by: JADAGENCY.aol.com
Re: faithandlife Digest 29 Jul 2005 15:40:31 -0000 Issue 818
8436 by: William Griffin
Re: Bill Tighe on the English Reformation
8438 by: Joseph Patterson
Bp Ryle , Election and Canonical Offense (sic) and Bias?
8443 by: The Rev GDVWiebe SSC.,PhD
8444 by: Michael Ward
Friday Farrago
8445 by: The Rev GDVWiebe SSC.,PhD
Administrivia:
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 08:41:52 -0700 (PDT)
To: faith life <faithandlife@...>
From: charles scott <crscottblu@...>
Subject: Who performs the work in a sacrament?
Message-ID: <20050729154152.61558.qmail@...>
--0-1199746847-1122651712=:60674
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
GOD AT WORK
There are 88 keys on my piano. To properly record on music paper every
possible melody and harmony would require that every forest be harvested
and turned into paper.
John made a similar observation in reference to his presentation of Jesus
Christ in the Gospel.
Of course the little 2 page riff on baptism I’ve begun writing, that is
intended as a lesson for young adults vaguely familiar with Scripture and
nothing else, does not begin to tell the whole story. As pastors, teachers
and evangelists we have a very small window in terms of both time and space
(paper) to present the Good News and the work of the Body of Christ in this
world.
I am grateful for the books of +Sutton, Tarsitano+ and others, so my recent
suggestion that we could use a new prayer book commentary was a compliment
to persons on this list who had written particularly illuminating and
concise paragraphs, not a condemnation of work by other people in other
times. We need more books, briefer and appropriate for our time.
For many years, when teaching catechism, I have used a “Men at Work” road
sign as the beginning point of a discussion on sacraments. The session
begins with the question, “What sign shall we put over Sacraments; Men at
Work or God at Work?” This question gives opportunity for us to correct
what is wanting in the TV ministers’ “only believe” presentations without
having to fight every battle Christian teachers faced since Nicea. We can
use Scripture as the basis for teaching how God gives grace to his people
without reciting the whole dismal history of how Christians dismembered and
burned one another in the political/religious conflicts of another time,
another place. I find there isn’t sufficient time to present our positive
messages and revisit old battlefields or to read the Liturgy through the
lens of theologians of another age when teaching young people the basics.
I was encouraged by Louis Tarsitano’s lines on page 31 of his “Outline of
an Anglican Life.” In his discussion on sacraments in bold headlines he
asks the question, “Who performs the work in a sacrament?”
His answer is given in two brief paragraphs of two sentences each.
“This is an important point that escapes many well-meaning people: that God
performs all the work in a sacrament. God is the giver of grace, and
faithful human beings are the receivers of grace.”
“Sacraments are objective acts of grace performed by God for our benefit.
While God uses the physical instruments of outward signs and ministers in
the sacraments, it is God alone who bestows grace, and God’s promises alone
that are fulfilled.”
Dr. Tarsitano has been for years teaching that the sign over sacraments is
“God at Work.”
I firmly believe that there are no idolaters in the APA or REC ranks and
that all the clergy understand the Sovereignty of God, that He is the
source of all goodness and that the Real Presence of Jesus Christ is the
means of grace and hope of glory for those who by faith receive Him. We
need to work together producing more teaching materials that will aid the
youth of our time to understand the mystery of faith.
Fr. Spencer, as I flipped through the 1994 edition of the book (we received
it in 1995), I noticed this line by Dr. Tarsitano: “I also wish to thank
the Reverend Fathers Glenn M. Spencer and Louis E. Traycik, who guided the
publication of the previous editions of this work.” Good job Fr. Glenn!
Charles+
--
To unsubscribe, send ANY message to: faithandlife-unsubscribe@...
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 13:53:55 EDT
To: faithandlife@...
From: GMSpencer@...
Subject: Re: [FaithandLife] Who performs the work in a sacrament?
Message-ID: <1c4.2d54dbbe.301bc733@...>
--part1_1c4.2d54dbbe.301bc733_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Language: en
In a message dated 7/29/05 11:44:56 AM, crscottblu@... writes:
> Fr. Spencer, as I flipped through the 1994 edition of the book (we
receive=
d=20
> it in 1995), I noticed this line by Dr. Tarsitano:=C2=A0 =E2=80=9CI also
w=
ish to thank=20
> the Reverend Fathers Glenn M. Spencer and Louis E. Traycik, who guided
the=
=20
> publication of the previous editions of this work.=E2=80=9D=C2=A0 Good
job=
Fr. Glenn!
>=20
Thanks Charles+
I'm sure both Lou Tarsitano and Lou Traycik have gotten a good Prayer
Book=20
service going up there and I'm sure the APA and REC get their constant=20
intercession!
Glenn+
--
To unsubscribe, send ANY message to: faithandlife-unsubscribe@...
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 11:46:58 -0400
To: <faithandlife@...>
From: "Michael Ward" <mward@...>
Subject: RE: FW: [FaithandLife] the meaning of the new birth
Message-ID: <C952E09E1C13F74FA9B0ACEF856928D004EC59@...>
Yeah, but at least it's a little less polemical!! Ha!! At least it is =
most
of the time....
MLW+
-----Original Message-----
From: GMSpencer@... [mailto:GMSpencer@...]=20
Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 11:18 AM
To: faithandlife@...
Subject: Re: FW: [FaithandLife] the meaning of the new birth
In a message dated 7/29/05 11:08:48 AM, mward@... writes:
> Wouldn't you rather talk about contemplative prayer or something?
>=20
Now Dr. Ward I understood you to mean the other day when you were giving =
me=20
spiritual direction that "talk" about CP was a little like reading a =
roadmap
and call that a vacation. I depend on you to keep me straight on these
matter!
Glenn+
--
To unsubscribe, send ANY message to: =
faithandlife-unsubscribe@...
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 11:53:24 -0400
To: <faithandlife@...>
From: "Michael Ward" <mward@...>
Subject: RE: FW: [FaithandLife] the meaning of the new birth
Message-ID: <C952E09E1C13F74FA9B0ACEF856928D004EC5C@...>
Mark+
Good stuff!! I'm informing you right now that I'm going to steal this =
(I'll
give you credit) when we get to Galatians in the lectionary!!!
MLW+
-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Clavier+ [mailto:anglican@...]=20
Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 11:40 AM
To: faithandlife@...
Subject: Re: FW: [FaithandLife] the meaning of the new birth
Mike+,
This Sunday I'll finish up a 3-part sermon series that began with my=20
tackling the whole wheat and tares parable in conjunction with Romans 8. =
I=20
end up tying it all to the list in Galatians of the qualities of =
redeemed=20
human nature (love, peace, joy, patience, kindness, goodness, =
faithfulness,=20
gentleness, and self-control). As I was working on it, I found myself=20
beginning to tell people that these are the things they should aim for.=20
Pelagius was rearing his Welsh head. I backed up and talked about their =
being fruits of the Spirit that can only come to us through prayer, =
worship,
and the sacraments. Amazing the response I got from people. They'd =
never=20
been taught anything like that before.
Mark+=20
--
To unsubscribe, send ANY message to: =
faithandlife-unsubscribe@...
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 11:57:47 -0400
To: <faithandlife@...>
From: "Mark Clavier+" <anglican@...>
Subject: Re: FW: [FaithandLife] the meaning of the new birth
Message-ID: <004c01c59456$4431cd60$0201a8c0@rector>
Mike+,
I normally don't go in for boring people with my sermons, but here's the
one
to which I referred:
Mark+
Last Sunday I mentioned to you the identifying marks of redeemed humanity.
That list, by the way, came from Galatians. Let me give it to you again:
"love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness,
and self-control." Those are the main qualities of sinless human nature.
When we fail to exemplify those qualities what we are doing is more than
just sinning, we're being less-than-human. And a world devoid of those
qualities is an inhumane world.
Well, without hopefully putting you all to sleep, I'd like to spend the
next
hour-I mean fifteen minutes-looking at those virtues a little more closely
to make sure everyone understands what they may mean. You can then go
home,
have lunch, and tell your spouse how he or she fails to be any of these
wonderful things!
So, let's start with love, next to the Trinity perhaps the most
misunderstood concept in the Bible. Love. We live in a world that loves
to
go on about love. Our shows are about love, our songs are about love, and
our books are about love. And so people end up with all sorts of funny
ideas about what love means. Most think it's an emotion particularly
suited
for Valentine's Day. It's all about feelings.
Scripture means something quite definite by the word love, and it has
precious little to do with our emotions. In Scripture, true love consists
of three things: esteem for others, a desire to help others, and a desire
to
be loved by others. And its source isn't our hearts-actually they thought
the emotion of love resided in our bowels, which would have made for
interesting Hallmark cards-its source is God. God Himself esteems us,
desires to help us, and desires to be loved by us. And, we are to act
towards God and our neighbors in precisely the same way. So, when Jesus
tells us to love our enemies, he doesn't mean we're supposed to send them a
Valentine or write them soppy love poetry. He's saying that we should
esteem them, desire to help them, and desire to be loved by them. Think on
that in our age of terror and tell me that Christianity isn't hard!
Next comes joy, another misunderstood word. Joy doesn't mean happiness.
It's
not the duty of Christians to be happy all the time, though I can think of
a
few who might give it a try from time to time! In Scripture, joy means
having such an awareness of God's presence and love that you'll become
filled with good will, will be gracious towards others, rejoice in their
blessings, and forgive them for their failings. It certainly doesn't mean
that you have to go around be perpetually exuberant, a smile on your face,
spreading good cheer as you go. Joy is much like that sense you have, far
deeper than any emotion, when you first looked at your newborn child or
noticed a particularly lovely flower, or feel the silence in the wood or
mountains. It's a sense of profound connectedness to something far greater
than you. That's joy.
Peace. "Blessed are the peacemakers," said our Lord during His Sermon on
the Mount. Today, peace often brings to mind pacifists. In the ancient
world, filled as it constantly was with war, raids, and conflicts close to
home, nothing was desired more than peace. Scripture means two things by
peace. First, it's an inward calm that comes from being anchored to God.
It's what allowed the martyrs to endure persecution and missionaries to
endure their journeys. But it's not an inner peace that comes from
withdrawing from the world or ignoring others. More actively, peace means
confronting the evils of the world in such a way as to bring harmony and
wholeness to others. In the Bible, a peacemaker isn't a passive person.
He's
someone brave and strong enough to go into chaos and conflict and through
his love and God's grace bring peace.
Next in line is patience, or better translated, long-suffering which, no
doubt, some of you are exhibiting now with my sermon. Christians are to
endure suffering and torment not necessarily like a Stoic with a stiff
upper
lip, but without yielding the other virtues. Even when the world hurls all
its darts at you, you continue to love, be good, faithful, kind, and exert
self-control. The pain and suffering will continue, it's just that they
won't
be allowed to control and define you. In the Book of Revelation, "patience
endurance" is one of the highest virtues of the saints.
Kindness ought to be self-explanatory. A truly human person will seek out
the good of others, be hospitable, and forgiving. It's a fruit of the
spirit not much mentioned these days. But perhaps it's a good place to
start: simply be kind.
By goodness, St. Paul doesn't just mean that we ought to be moral.
Certainly, that's part of it. As the Psalmist puts it, "we're to do good
and eschew (or avoid) evil." But it also means that we're to be "good for
something." We're to seek to fulfill our purpose in life. All of us are
called to be stewards of God. Each of us has a vocation. Through the
Spirit, we're to be stewards and ambassadors of God in our work, family
life, play, and service.
We should remain faithful, as well. The Greek word used for faith means
allegiance. When we claim to have faith, we claim to have pledged our
allegiance to God. Through Scripture, we see that God is constantly
faithful towards us. We're to return the favor, and seek to remain
faithful
to Him in how we lead our lives, govern our actions, and resist temptation.
Next is the really popular one these days: gentleness. This word is
normally translated meekness. We're to be meek, which is about as popular
as being Hilary Clinton at an NRA meeting! I've often said that I'll know
that the Church is making a real difference when I see the headline on GQ
that reads: "How to be a meeker man."
There's very little about which Scripture is clearer than the need for
Christians to be submissive and teachable. In an age in which private
judgment is one of the great idols, this is perhaps the fruit least
demonstrated and most scorned. But unless we do learn to stand
submissively
before God, learn to be humble enough to set aside our personal opinions
and
predilections and be taught by Scripture, and unless we respect deeply and
humbly the views and needs of others, we'll fail to be totally human.
Meekness is the opposite of pride, the vice that led to our fall.
And finally there is self-control. By this, St. Paul means our resisting
impulses. And in his first letter to the Corinthians, he tells us the
questions we should ask in order to resist impulse. Is what we wish to do
helpful? Is it constructive? Does it glorify God? If not, we're to
exert
self-mastery against it. In an age of marketing, what an excellent virtue
for us all to have!
So, there you have it: an overview of human nature as it ought to be, of
the
human nature that we will one day have. But let me make it clear that
these
aren't virtues that you and I can work on. St. Paul calls them "fruits of
the spirit," by which he means that these are the effect the Spirit of God
dwelling within us has. Those fruits come to us not through are setting
goals and working towards them, but through prayer, contemplation, worship,
the sacraments, and ministering to each other. It's by connecting with the
Spirit that we will grow in the Spirit. Conversely, it's by neglecting the
Holy Spirit that we won't grow and won't produce fruit.
Nor should you be worried if you don't feel like you exemplify these
virtues. Last week we heard how the Spirit of God groans within us. The
Holy Spirit won't drag us kicking and screaming against our will. He'll
work with us, groan with us, and be frustrated with us as we grow, however
slowly and with however much pain towards being the human beings we're
meant
and redeemed to be. And that's also not a road that goes ever upwards.
It's
a road that sees many heights but also leads through many dark valleys.
But you do know how you're to conduct yourself and treat others. Work in
your prayer life and worship on becoming more attuned to God's Spirit.
When
you are confronted with difficult situations, respond to the crisis with
prayer, giving the Holy Spirit the opportunity to guide you towards right
action. Measure your words for the same reason. Do this especially in
those times when you feel fear or anger welling up inside you. None of
this, of course, will be easy. That's part of the cross we must bear. But
give the Holy Spirit time, give prayer and worship a chance, and you'll be
transformed into the glorious human you were made to be.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 13:08:35 -0400
To: <faithandlife@...>
From: "Michael Ward" <mward@...>
Subject: RE: FW: [FaithandLife] the meaning of the new birth
Message-ID: <C952E09E1C13F74FA9B0ACEF856928D004EC61@...>
Mark+
Thanks! You just made it a lot easier to swipe from you!!
MLW+
-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Clavier+ [mailto:anglican@...]=20
Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 11:58 AM
To: faithandlife@...
Subject: Re: FW: [FaithandLife] the meaning of the new birth
Mike+,
I normally don't go in for boring people with my sermons, but here's the =
one
to which I referred:
Mark+
Last Sunday I mentioned to you the identifying marks of redeemed =
humanity.=20
That list, by the way, came from Galatians. Let me give it to you =
again:=20
"love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, =
gentleness,=20
and self-control." Those are the main qualities of sinless human =
nature.=20
When we fail to exemplify those qualities what we are doing is more than =
just sinning, we're being less-than-human. And a world devoid of those=20
qualities is an inhumane world.
Well, without hopefully putting you all to sleep, I'd like to spend the =
next
hour-I mean fifteen minutes-looking at those virtues a little more =
closely=20
to make sure everyone understands what they may mean. You can then go =
home,
have lunch, and tell your spouse how he or she fails to be any of these=20
wonderful things!
So, let's start with love, next to the Trinity perhaps the most=20
misunderstood concept in the Bible. Love. We live in a world that =
loves to
go on about love. Our shows are about love, our songs are about love, =
and=20
our books are about love. And so people end up with all sorts of funny=20
ideas about what love means. Most think it's an emotion particularly =
suited
for Valentine's Day. It's all about feelings.
Scripture means something quite definite by the word love, and it has=20
precious little to do with our emotions. In Scripture, true love =
consists=20
of three things: esteem for others, a desire to help others, and a =
desire to
be loved by others. And its source isn't our hearts-actually they =
thought=20
the emotion of love resided in our bowels, which would have made for=20
interesting Hallmark cards-its source is God. God Himself esteems us,=20
desires to help us, and desires to be loved by us. And, we are to act=20
towards God and our neighbors in precisely the same way. So, when Jesus =
tells us to love our enemies, he doesn't mean we're supposed to send =
them a=20
Valentine or write them soppy love poetry. He's saying that we should=20
esteem them, desire to help them, and desire to be loved by them. Think =
on=20
that in our age of terror and tell me that Christianity isn't hard!
Next comes joy, another misunderstood word. Joy doesn't mean happiness.
It's=20
not the duty of Christians to be happy all the time, though I can think =
of a
few who might give it a try from time to time! In Scripture, joy means=20
having such an awareness of God's presence and love that you'll become=20
filled with good will, will be gracious towards others, rejoice in their =
blessings, and forgive them for their failings. It certainly doesn't =
mean=20
that you have to go around be perpetually exuberant, a smile on your =
face,=20
spreading good cheer as you go. Joy is much like that sense you have, =
far=20
deeper than any emotion, when you first looked at your newborn child or=20
noticed a particularly lovely flower, or feel the silence in the wood or =
mountains. It's a sense of profound connectedness to something far =
greater=20
than you. That's joy.
Peace. "Blessed are the peacemakers," said our Lord during His Sermon =
on=20
the Mount. Today, peace often brings to mind pacifists. In the ancient =
world, filled as it constantly was with war, raids, and conflicts close =
to=20
home, nothing was desired more than peace. Scripture means two things =
by=20
peace. First, it's an inward calm that comes from being anchored to =
God.=20
It's what allowed the martyrs to endure persecution and missionaries to=20
endure their journeys. But it's not an inner peace that comes from=20
withdrawing from the world or ignoring others. More actively, peace =
means=20
confronting the evils of the world in such a way as to bring harmony and =
wholeness to others. In the Bible, a peacemaker isn't a passive person.
He's=20
someone brave and strong enough to go into chaos and conflict and =
through=20
his love and God's grace bring peace.
Next in line is patience, or better translated, long-suffering which, no =
doubt, some of you are exhibiting now with my sermon. Christians are to =
endure suffering and torment not necessarily like a Stoic with a stiff =
upper
lip, but without yielding the other virtues. Even when the world hurls =
all=20
its darts at you, you continue to love, be good, faithful, kind, and =
exert=20
self-control. The pain and suffering will continue, it's just that they
won't=20
be allowed to control and define you. In the Book of Revelation, =
"patience=20
endurance" is one of the highest virtues of the saints.
Kindness ought to be self-explanatory. A truly human person will seek =
out=20
the good of others, be hospitable, and forgiving. It's a fruit of the=20
spirit not much mentioned these days. But perhaps it's a good place to=20
start: simply be kind.
By goodness, St. Paul doesn't just mean that we ought to be moral.=20
Certainly, that's part of it. As the Psalmist puts it, "we're to do =
good=20
and eschew (or avoid) evil." But it also means that we're to be "good =
for=20
something." We're to seek to fulfill our purpose in life. All of us =
are=20
called to be stewards of God. Each of us has a vocation. Through the=20
Spirit, we're to be stewards and ambassadors of God in our work, family=20
life, play, and service.
We should remain faithful, as well. The Greek word used for faith means =
allegiance. When we claim to have faith, we claim to have pledged our=20
allegiance to God. Through Scripture, we see that God is constantly=20
faithful towards us. We're to return the favor, and seek to remain =
faithful
to Him in how we lead our lives, govern our actions, and resist =
temptation.
Next is the really popular one these days: gentleness. This word is=20
normally translated meekness. We're to be meek, which is about as =
popular=20
as being Hilary Clinton at an NRA meeting! I've often said that I'll =
know=20
that the Church is making a real difference when I see the headline on =
GQ=20
that reads: "How to be a meeker man."
There's very little about which Scripture is clearer than the need for=20
Christians to be submissive and teachable. In an age in which private=20
judgment is one of the great idols, this is perhaps the fruit least=20
demonstrated and most scorned. But unless we do learn to stand =
submissively
before God, learn to be humble enough to set aside our personal opinions =
and
predilections and be taught by Scripture, and unless we respect deeply =
and=20
humbly the views and needs of others, we'll fail to be totally human.=20
Meekness is the opposite of pride, the vice that led to our fall.
And finally there is self-control. By this, St. Paul means our =
resisting=20
impulses. And in his first letter to the Corinthians, he tells us the=20
questions we should ask in order to resist impulse. Is what we wish to =
do=20
helpful? Is it constructive? Does it glorify God? If not, we're to =
exert
self-mastery against it. In an age of marketing, what an excellent =
virtue=20
for us all to have!
So, there you have it: an overview of human nature as it ought to be, of =
the
human nature that we will one day have. But let me make it clear that =
these
aren't virtues that you and I can work on. St. Paul calls them "fruits =
of=20
the spirit," by which he means that these are the effect the Spirit of =
God=20
dwelling within us has. Those fruits come to us not through are setting =
goals and working towards them, but through prayer, contemplation, =
worship,=20
the sacraments, and ministering to each other. It's by connecting with =
the=20
Spirit that we will grow in the Spirit. Conversely, it's by neglecting =
the=20
Holy Spirit that we won't grow and won't produce fruit.
Nor should you be worried if you don't feel like you exemplify these=20
virtues. Last week we heard how the Spirit of God groans within us. =
The=20
Holy Spirit won't drag us kicking and screaming against our will. He'll =
work with us, groan with us, and be frustrated with us as we grow, =
however=20
slowly and with however much pain towards being the human beings we're =
meant
and redeemed to be. And that's also not a road that goes ever upwards.
It's=20
a road that sees many heights but also leads through many dark valleys.
But you do know how you're to conduct yourself and treat others. Work =
in=20
your prayer life and worship on becoming more attuned to God's Spirit. =
When
you are confronted with difficult situations, respond to the crisis with =
prayer, giving the Holy Spirit the opportunity to guide you towards =
right=20
action. Measure your words for the same reason. Do this especially in=20
those times when you feel fear or anger welling up inside you. None of=20
this, of course, will be easy. That's part of the cross we must bear. =
But=20
give the Holy Spirit time, give prayer and worship a chance, and you'll =
be=20
transformed into the glorious human you were made to be.
--
To unsubscribe, send ANY message to: =
faithandlife-unsubscribe@...
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 13:40:54 EDT
To: faithandlife@...
From: GMSpencer@...
Subject: Re: FW: [FaithandLife] the meaning of the new birth
Message-ID: <fd.1899f663.301bc426@...>
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In a message dated 7/29/05 11:34:55 AM, anglican@... writes:
> Agreed, though as long the the form for baptism is used without
amendation=
,
> ultimately I'm not much bothered with what the individual priest (or
> presbyter) thinks is happening.=A0 That's the nice thing about common
pray=
er
> isn't it?
>=20
> Mark+
>=20
Agreed! I love common prayer! And I love the discussions, but you are
exactl=
y=20
right. Thanks.
Glenn+
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Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 13:45:32 EDT
To: faithandlife@...
From: GMSpencer@...
Subject: Re: FW: [FaithandLife] the meaning of the new birth
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In a message dated 7/29/05 11:44:03 AM, anglican@... writes:
> As I was working on it, I found myself
> beginning to tell people that these are the things they should aim for.
> Pelagius was rearing his Welsh head.=A0 I backed up and talked about their
> being fruits of the Spirit that can only come to us through prayer,
worshi=
p,
> and the sacraments.=A0 Amazing the response I got from people.=A0 They'd
n=
ever
> been taught anything like that before.
>=20
But is this pelagianism that your talking about? Pelagius heresy was that
he=
=20
taught we could will and do the good without the help of God. That is the=20
critical point: without God's aid. You are preaching to the Faithful -
the=20
Baptized - and thus you can exhort them to holy behavior just because they
a=
re=20
baptized and are already filled with the grace of God. Or am I missing
somet=
hing?
Glenn
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Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 13:48:24 EDT
To: faithandlife@...
From: GMSpencer@...
Subject: Re: FW: [FaithandLife] the meaning of the new birth
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Good night! How long is that sermon Mark? I'd think you were a Presbyterian
preacher based on the length! :)
Glenn+
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Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 13:53:15 -0400
To: <faithandlife@...>
From: "Mark Clavier+" <anglican@...>
Subject: Re: FW: [FaithandLife] the meaning of the new birth
Message-ID: <001d01c59466$bc46aa90$0201a8c0@rector>
Glenn+,
About 20 minutes...admittedly on the longer side for me!
Mark+
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 13:56:12 -0400
To: <faithandlife@...>
From: "Mark Clavier+" <anglican@...>
Subject: Re: FW: [FaithandLife] the meaning of the new birth
Message-ID: <001e01c59466$fc2511b0$0201a8c0@rector>
Glenn+,
My take has always been that yes, we knowledge and baptismal grace are
necessary for our cooperating with God in our becoming more fully human.
But these qualities can't be achieved through strength of will but through
the grace of prayer, worship, sacraments, and ministry. Setting virtuous
goals at best is frustrating and at worst a short road to
self-righteousness. That's why I've always like the Pauline language about
"putting on" Christ or the virtues like a garment. They don't come from
within us ( as the Stoics believed) but from God.
Mark+
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 13:58:17 EDT
To: faithandlife@...
From: GMSpencer@...
Subject: Re: FW: [FaithandLife] the meaning of the new birth
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In a message dated 7/29/05 1:55:57 PM, anglican@... writes:
> Glenn+,
>
> About 20 minutes...admittedly on the longer side for me!
>
> Mark+
>
Holy Molie!!!
Glenn+
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Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 14:05:58 EDT
To: faithandlife@...
From: GMSpencer@...
Subject: Re: FW: [FaithandLife] the meaning of the new birth
Message-ID: <25.64522cc8.301bca06@...>
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In a message dated 7/29/05 1:57:45 PM, anglican@... writes:
> Setting virtuous
> goals at best is frustrating and at worst a short road to
> self-righteousness.=A0 That's why I've always like the Pauline language
ab=
out
> "putting on" Christ or the virtues like a garment.=A0 They don't come from
> within us ( as the Stoics believed) but from God.
>=20
Mark+
I agree with you, I just think baptism makes all the difference in the
world=
=20
because we never, never speak of virtue apart from the grace of God. That=20
would be moralism which is absolutely deadly. But once baptized everything
i=
s=20
different, though baptism is a beginning and not the "get out of jail
free"=20=
card=20
some folks may believe it is. I've never actually met anyone who actually=20
believed that. But as to Paul's wonderful phrase "putting on Christ" that
is=
some=20
that a baptized person can in fact do because he has been infused with
the=20
virtues that enable it. To exhort the unbaptized to do the same would of
cou=
rse be=20
absurd. I think?
Glenn+
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Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 16:21:17 -0400
To: <faithandlife@...>
From: "William H. Perkins, Jr." <wperkin2@...>
Subject: Re: FW: [FaithandLife] the meaning of the new birth
Message-ID: <009201c5947b$1d525370$0302a8c0@nameo6ntfii8wa>
Guy's+:
Baptismal regeneration works fine if you do not look at it through John
Calvin's eyes. You simply have to look away from the tulips and realize
that a believer can choose to rebel against God and become apostate.
Remember Christ's parables of wheat and tares, good fruit vs. bad fruit,
false prophets and that not all that call Him "Lord, Lord" will enter the
kingdom of God. Those parables were spoken to the religious people of His
day in covenant with God not to lost sinners who were not Jews and not in
covenant with God.
Stalin and Hitler are in hell for forsaking their baptismal promises and
becoming apostate.
Bill+
----- Original Message -----
From: <GMSpencer@...>
To: <faithandlife@...>
Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 9:39 AM
Subject: Re: FW: [FaithandLife] the meaning of the new birth
In a message dated 7/29/05 8:56:39 AM, mward@... writes:
> If baptism
> always "works," then Joseph Stalin (who, I believe, was at one time a
> seminary student) would be enjoying the Beatific Vision right now.
>
That would only be the case if the spiritual benefits of baptism, like
regeneration, cannot be lost and we know from the liturgical texts of the
BCP that
is the case that those benefits can be lost eternally. It is a shame that
Stalin and Hitler were baptized, and if rightly performed, grafted into the
body of
Christ's Church, but they did not remain so. Branches grafted into the Vine
of Christ may be broken off and cast onto the fire. In that case the
indelible
mark of baptism only damns one with a greater judgment. Right?
Glenn+
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Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 17:22:38 EDT
To: faithandlife@...
From: JADAGENCY@...
Subject: Re: FW: [FaithandLife] the meaning of the new birth
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Bill+
Well put.
JAD+
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Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 17:26:17 -0400
To: <faithandlife@...>
From: "William H. Perkins, Jr." <wperkin2@...>
Subject: Re: FW: [FaithandLife] the meaning of the new birth
Message-ID: <00ac01c59484$29749fb0$0302a8c0@nameo6ntfii8wa>
JAD+:
Thanks!
Bill+
----- Original Message -----
From: <JADAGENCY@...>
To: <faithandlife@...>
Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 5:22 PM
Subject: Re: FW: [FaithandLife] the meaning of the new birth
> Bill+
>
> Well put.
>
> JAD+
>
> --
> To unsubscribe, send ANY message to:
> faithandlife-unsubscribe@...
>
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 17:28:07 EDT
To: faithandlife@...
From: GMSpencer@...
Subject: Re: FW: [FaithandLife] the meaning of the new birth
Message-ID: <1a4.3c2380ac.301bf967@...>
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In a message dated 7/29/05 4:20:31 PM, wperkin2@... writes:
> Remember Christ's parables of wheat and tares, good fruit vs. bad fruit,
> false prophets and that not all that call Him "Lord, Lord" will enter the
> kingdom of God.=A0 Those parables were spoken to the religious people of
H=
is
> day in covenant with God not to lost sinners who were not Jews and not in
> covenant with God.
>=20
Thanks Bill!=20
I recall how, years ago, I used to twist these very verses because they
did=20
not fit the system I believed in. Calvinism, in my opinion, is a
Procrustean=
=20
Bed. Procrustius was an innkeeper who has an iron bed he made available
to=20
travelers. The problem was that his guests were either too short or too
long=
to=20
sleep comfortably. But Procrustius was an easy answer to the problem. If
the=
=20
guests were to short he simply stretched him out till he fit. If the guest
w=
as too=20
long he simply chopped off enough of him till he fit. Most "systems" are=20
Procrustean Beds that require violence to scripture to make it fit the
logic=
of=20
the system.=20
Glenn+
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Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 18:08:02 -0400
To: <faithandlife@...>
From: "William H. Perkins, Jr." <wperkin2@...>
Subject: Re: FW: [FaithandLife] the meaning of the new birth
Message-ID: <00b301c59489$fecdae90$0302a8c0@nameo6ntfii8wa>
Glen+:
Thanks!
Bill+
----- Original Message -----
From: <GMSpencer@...>
To: <faithandlife@...>
Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 5:28 PM
Subject: Re: FW: [FaithandLife] the meaning of the new birth
In a message dated 7/29/05 4:20:31 PM, wperkin2@... writes:
> Remember Christ's parables of wheat and tares, good fruit vs. bad fruit,
> false prophets and that not all that call Him "Lord, Lord" will enter the
> kingdom of God. Those parables were spoken to the religious people of His
> day in covenant with God not to lost sinners who were not Jews and not in
> covenant with God.
>
Thanks Bill!
I recall how, years ago, I used to twist these very verses because they did
not fit the system I believed in. Calvinism, in my opinion, is a Procrustean
Bed. Procrustius was an innkeeper who has an iron bed he made available to
travelers. The problem was that his guests were either too short or too
long
to
sleep comfortably. But Procrustius was an easy answer to the problem. If the
guests were to short he simply stretched him out till he fit. If the guest
was too
long he simply chopped off enough of him till he fit. Most "systems" are
Procrustean Beds that require violence to scripture to make it fit the
logic
of
the system.
Glenn+
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 09:10:27 -0700 (PDT)
To: faith life <faithandlife@...>
From: charles scott <crscottblu@...>
Subject: BICKNELL ON BAPTISM
Message-ID: <20050729161028.23716.qmail@...>
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BICKNELL ON BAPTISM
Brothers+
Am I wrong in my assumption that men in both the APA and the REC can find
some stastements in Bicknell’s commentary on the 39 Articles with which
they agree?
Most of us have many an old book of theology and a variety of prayer book
commentaries. Some paragraphs here and there are useful and may be adapted
to our time.. In the sampling below, are there items on which we agree
that can be made more understandable to a 20th century young pagan?
I like more than I dislike Bicknell’s article on Holy Baptism p. 369 of his
“The Thirty-Nine Articles of the Church of England”, originally put forth
in 1919, my edition went to press in 1959. The “however” is that this sort
of work, though heavily based on Scripture, is not easily understood by
today’s readers. Also, Bicknell spends a great deal of time and space in
his book arguing against positions, fighting wars, the principals of which
are not readily identifiable by today’s young adults.
Bicknell weighs in against Christian socialists on page 443 of his book.
This is
understandable because of the “Revolting Russians” and other godless
communists that were having their way in the world in his time and in much
of the 20th century. Little space is given to social problems that have
come to the fore in our day such as the stability of the family,
materialism, sexual morality and the ever decreasing space for God talk in
the public square. Those were not the big issues in 1919.
Bicknell does, however, give a balance to the teaching on baptism which was
hotly controverted in his day. Here are some quotes from his 13 pages of
exposition.
“From first to last the New Testament knows of no other means of entrance
into the Church. A Christian and a baptized person are synonymous terms.”
(p 369)
“It is noticeable that the Didache both speaks of baptism ‘into the name of
the Lord’ and also gives the Trinitarian formula showing that the two are
not in any way inconsistent or mutually exclusive.” P. 370 (Bicknell also
shows that Eusebius uses both baptismal formulas.)
“What meaning is given to Baptism in Scripture? Primarily it signified the
public acknowledgement of Jesus as Lord or Messiah and entrance into the
New Israel. . . .Scripture makes it clear that baptism is not only a sign
of profession but a means of grace.” (p370-371)
In reference to John 3, Bicknell writes, “Nicodemus stands in the same
relation to the new Israel as a Gentile to the old Israel. He must become
a ‘new creature’. But whereas Jewish baptism and even John’s baptism was
only with water, the baptism that admits into the Kingdom of God is ‘of
water and Spirit’ – the preposition not being repeated binds the two words
into a single phrase. This baptism not only symbolizes cleansing and new
life, but bestows them. . . . Some have seen an allusion to Genesis 1:2.
The new man rises from the water of baptism at the creative touch of the
Spirit of God, even as the world sprang to life as He moved on the faces of
the waters at the first creation. The root idea is perfectly clear. At
our first birth we receive the initial capacity for life in this present
world: at our new birth the initial capacity for life in the Kingdom of
God and ‘the age to come’. The same thought underlies the whole of the
New Testament teaching on Baptism” (Titus
3:5, I Cor 12:13, Galatians 3:27). P 371
“By our new birth in baptism we become in Christ (I Cor 15:22). Christ is
the new Adam, the source of a new and regenerate humanity. Henceforward
the Christian is to live and do all things in Christ (Eph 1:3,2:6). As
members of Christ His life is within us (I Cor 6:15)” p.372
“Henceforth the baptized is to reckon himself ‘dead to sin but alive unto
God in Christ Jesus (Romans 6:10, Col 3:1-3). In I Peter 3:20-21 stress is
laid on present salvation begun here and now through baptism. The Church is
the ark in which safety may be found..” p. 372
“This baptism not only symbolizes new birth but conveys it, since by it we
are members of Christ. Again by baptism ‘as by an instrument, they that
receive baptism rightly are grafted into the Church.’ This simply
expresses the same truth from another standpoint. The Church is Christ’s
body. The metaphor of grafting comes from Romans 11:17. . . .The promises
of the forgiveness of sin . . . by the Holy Ghost are visibly signed and
sealed. It is as being in Christ that we are forgiven.” P. 372
“By ourselves we can not be all that God meant us to be. . . .Only Jesus
Christ has ever lived on earth a human life as a true Son of God, and by
baptism He imparts to us the power of His own human sonship. Only He can
fully restore our capacity for filial love and obedience and take away the
sin that has destroyed sonship. So, too, it is as members of Christ that
we share His election and are among ‘the elect people of God’ (Romans 16:13
and Ephesians 1:4) and are inheritors of His Kingdom. ‘I was made a member
of Christ, the child of God and inheritor of the Kingdom of Heaven’.
Baptism, therefore like the Eucharist, has an eschatological reference; it
is a pledge not only of the new life with and for God in this world, but
also of our final inheritance of eternal life at ‘the manifestation of the
sons of God’, when we shall receive our ‘adoption, namely, the redemption
of our bodies’ (Romans 8:19,23).” P. 373
“Again, much confusion has arisen because the word ‘regeneration’ has been
used in different senses. The Prayer-Book means by it simply incorporated
in to Christ. All baptized persons are ’regenerate’ in this sense. . . .In
this sense a baptized person who has made no effort to live up to his
privileges is not ‘regenerate’. If we use Prayer-Book language we say that
regeneration needs to be supplemented by conversion. The actual renewal of
the soul requires both the gift of the grace of God in baptism and also the
personal surrender of the will to that grace. A man should be both
regenerate and converted. Regeneration is the work of God: it is
accomplished in a moment: by it new powers are placed in our grasp.
Conversion is our work in conjunction with God: it calls for effort and
self surrender to the divine will. Conversion may precede regeneration of
follow it.” P 375
“Whatever blessings God may bestow outside, by baptism we enter within the
circle of God’s covenanted mercies. No conversion, however complete, can
of itself guarantee full and abiding union with Christ. The normal means
of that union, where it can be had is baptism, followed by a life lived in
the fellowship of the Church.” P. 375
Am I wrong in thinking that we find common ground in this exposition; more
with which we can agree than disagree?
I think there is much good in Bicknell, as well as other of the
commentaries from another day. It is ok for clergy and advanced students,
but who in the 20-50 age group will take the time to read or listen to
extended arguments replete with historical references to problems with
which we are not dealing today?
Last year, when I moved to the Indianapolis area, some really fine
Christians at Good Shepherd, all of them with college educations and also
“cradle Episcopalians” asked that I teach the members of this small mission
the basics of Anglicanism. This small, 20+ year old mission had existed
for 20 years with no resident or regular clergy.
The request was specifically that we review the 39 articles, the
sacraments, the creeds and the Prayer Book.
In that particular, peculiar, nearly unique class, it was possible to use
chapters from the old prayer book commentaries, quotes from theological and
historical tomes to illuminate the meaning of the articles and show how we
face some of the same sort of issues today.
These retired people had time to read and think and were accustomed to the
language presented. Some of these folks actually did reading in advance of
the class and appeared to have some understanding of history as they
entered the discussions. These were advanced students compared with those
we commonly meet in society. That was the upside. The down side was that
even these could not maintain concentration for more than 10 weeks, we had
to be very selective of what to cover and what to save for another year.
I doubt there will be many times I can re-use the materials gathered for
that effort. How often do we have the opportunity to engage that sort of
audience in discussion and learning? That sort of introduction to Christ
and our faith is not possible with most in our society
We need to work together producing more teaching materials that will aid
the youth of our time to understand the mystery of faith.
Charles+
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Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 13:01:21 -0400
To: <faithandlife@...>
From: "Frank Warren" <warren-sa@...>
Subject: Re: [FaithandLife] BICKNELL ON BAPTISM
Message-ID: <BAY103-DAV13459A9DC60F1521C06690E7CE0@...>
------=_NextPart_000_0307_01C5943D.9E2AAD00
Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
My copy is the third edition, revised by H.L. Carpenter, M.A., D.D. =
Bishop of Oxford, "New Impression" October 1963.
I like it, but what do I know?
Frank=20
----- Original Message -----=20
From: charles scott<mailto:crscottblu@...>=20
To: faith life<mailto:faithandlife@...>=20
Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 12:10 PM
Subject: [FaithandLife] BICKNELL ON BAPTISM
BICKNELL ON BAPTISM
=20
Brothers+
=20
Am I wrong in my assumption that men in both the APA and the REC can =
find some stastements in Bicknell's commentary on the 39 Articles with =
which they agree?
=20
Most of us have many an old book of theology and a variety of prayer =
book commentaries. Some paragraphs here and there are useful and may be =
adapted to our time.. In the sampling below, are there items on which =
we agree that can be made more understandable to a 20th century young =
pagan?
=20
I like more than I dislike Bicknell's article on Holy Baptism p. 369 =
of his "The Thirty-Nine Articles of the Church of England", originally =
put forth in 1919, my edition went to press in 1959. The "however" is =
that this sort of work, though heavily based on Scripture, is not easily =
understood by today's readers. Also, Bicknell spends a great deal of =
time and space in his book arguing against positions, fighting wars, the =
principals of which are not readily identifiable by today's young =
adults.
=20
Bicknell weighs in against Christian socialists on page 443 of his =
book. This is=20
understandable because of the "Revolting Russians" and other godless =
communists that were having their way in the world in his time and in =
much of the 20th century. Little space is given to social problems that =
have come to the fore in our day such as the stability of the family, =
materialism, sexual morality and the ever decreasing space for God talk =
in the public square. Those were not the big issues in 1919.
=20
Bicknell does, however, give a balance to the teaching on baptism =
which was hotly controverted in his day. Here are some quotes from his =
13 pages of exposition.
=20
"From first to last the New Testament knows of no other means of =
entrance into the Church. A Christian and a baptized person are =
synonymous terms." (p 369)
"It is noticeable that the Didache both speaks of baptism 'into the =
name of the Lord' and also gives the Trinitarian formula showing that =
the two are not in any way inconsistent or mutually exclusive." P. 370 =
(Bicknell also shows that Eusebius uses both baptismal formulas.)
"What meaning is given to Baptism in Scripture? Primarily it =
signified the public acknowledgement of Jesus as Lord or Messiah and =
entrance into the New Israel. . . .Scripture makes it clear that baptism =
is not only a sign of profession but a means of grace." (p370-371)
In reference to John 3, Bicknell writes, "Nicodemus stands in the same =
relation to the new Israel as a Gentile to the old Israel. He must =
become a 'new creature'. But whereas Jewish baptism and even John's =
baptism was only with water, the baptism that admits into the Kingdom of =
God is 'of water and Spirit' - the preposition not being repeated binds =
the two words into a single phrase. This baptism not only symbolizes =
cleansing and new life, but bestows them. . . . Some have seen an =
allusion to Genesis 1:2. The new man rises from the water of baptism at =
the creative touch of the Spirit of God, even as the world sprang to =
life as He moved on the faces of the waters at the first creation. The =
root idea is perfectly clear. At our first birth we receive the initial =
capacity for life in this present world: at our new birth the initial =
capacity for life in the Kingdom of God and 'the age to come'. The =
same thought underlies the whole of the New Testament teaching on =
Baptism" (Titus
3:5, I Cor 12:13, Galatians 3:27). P 371
"By our new birth in baptism we become in Christ (I Cor 15:22). =
Christ is the new Adam, the source of a new and regenerate humanity. =
Henceforward the Christian is to live and do all things in Christ (Eph =
1:3,2:6). As members of Christ His life is within us (I Cor 6:15)" =
p.372
"Henceforth the baptized is to reckon himself 'dead to sin but alive =
unto God in Christ Jesus (Romans 6:10, Col 3:1-3). In I Peter 3:20-21 =
stress is laid on present salvation begun here and now through baptism. =
The Church is the ark in which safety may be found.." p. 372
"This baptism not only symbolizes new birth but conveys it, since by =
it we are members of Christ. Again by baptism 'as by an instrument, =
they that receive baptism rightly are grafted into the Church.' This =
simply expresses the same truth from another standpoint. The Church is =
Christ's body. The metaphor of grafting comes from Romans 11:17. . . =
The promises of the forgiveness of sin . . . by the Holy Ghost are =
visibly signed and sealed. It is as being in Christ that we are =
forgiven." P. 372
"By ourselves we can not be all that God meant us to be. . . .Only =
Jesus Christ has ever lived on earth a human life as a true Son of God, =
and by baptism He imparts to us the power of His own human sonship. =
Only He can fully restore our capacity for filial love and obedience and =
take away the sin that has destroyed sonship. So, too, it is as members =
of Christ that we share His election and are among 'the elect people of =
God' (Romans 16:13 and Ephesians 1:4) and are inheritors of His Kingdom. =
'I was made a member of Christ, the child of God and inheritor of the =
Kingdom of Heaven'. Baptism, therefore like the Eucharist, has an =
eschatological reference; it is a pledge not only of the new life with =
and for God in this world, but also of our final inheritance of eternal =
life at 'the manifestation of the sons of God', when we shall receive =
our 'adoption, namely, the redemption of our bodies' (Romans 8:19,23)." =
P. 373
"Again, much confusion has arisen because the word 'regeneration' has =
been used in different senses. The Prayer-Book means by it simply =
incorporated in to Christ. All baptized persons are 'regenerate' in =
this sense. . . .In this sense a baptized person who has made no effort =
to live up to his privileges is not 'regenerate'. If we use Prayer-Book =
language we say that regeneration needs to be supplemented by =
conversion. The actual renewal of the soul requires both the gift of =
the grace of God in baptism and also the personal surrender of the will =
to that grace. A man should be both regenerate and converted. =
Regeneration is the work of God: it is accomplished in a moment: by it =
new powers are placed in our grasp. Conversion is our work in =
conjunction with God: it calls for effort and self surrender to the =
divine will. Conversion may precede regeneration of follow it." P 375
"Whatever blessings God may bestow outside, by baptism we enter =
within the circle of God's covenanted mercies. No conversion, however =
complete, can of itself guarantee full and abiding union with Christ. =
The normal means of that union, where it can be had is baptism, followed =
by a life lived in the fellowship of the Church." P. 375
=20
Am I wrong in thinking that we find common ground in this exposition; =
more with which we can agree than disagree?
=20
I think there is much good in Bicknell, as well as other of the =
commentaries from another day. It is ok for clergy and advanced =
students, but who in the 20-50 age group will take the time to read or =
listen to extended arguments replete with historical references to =
problems with which we are not dealing today?
=20
Last year, when I moved to the Indianapolis area, some really fine =
Christians at Good Shepherd, all of them with college educations and =
also "cradle Episcopalians" asked that I teach the members of this small =
mission the basics of Anglicanism. This small, 20+ year old mission had =
existed for 20 years with no resident or regular clergy.
The request was specifically that we review the 39 articles, the =
sacraments, the creeds and the Prayer Book. =20
=20
In that particular, peculiar, nearly unique class, it was possible to =
use chapters from the old prayer book commentaries, quotes from =
theological and historical tomes to illuminate the meaning of the =
articles and show how we face some of the same sort of issues today.
These retired people had time to read and think and were accustomed to =
the language presented. Some of these folks actually did reading in =
advance of the class and appeared to have some understanding of history =
as they entered the discussions. These were advanced students compared =
with those we commonly meet in society. That was the upside. The down =
side was that even these could not maintain concentration for more than =
10 weeks, we had to be very selective of what to cover and what to save =
for another year. =20
=20
I doubt there will be many times I can re-use the materials gathered =
for that effort. How often do we have the opportunity to engage that =
sort of audience in discussion and learning? That sort of introduction =
to Christ and our faith is not possible with most in our society
=20
We need to work together producing more teaching materials that will =
aid the youth of our time to understand the mystery of faith.
=20
=20
Charles+
=20
=20
=20
=20
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 14:08:24 EDT
To: faithandlife@...
From: GMSpencer@...
Subject: Re: [FaithandLife] BICKNELL ON BAPTISM
Message-ID: <9b.6465ad04.301bca98@...>
--part1_9b.6465ad04.301bca98_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
In a message dated 7/29/05 1:01:57 PM, warren-sa@... writes:
> My copy is the third edition, revised by H.L. Carpenter, M.A., D.D.
Bishop
> of Oxford, "New Impression" October 1963.
>
> I like it,
>
Dear Frank,
I do as well. By the way have you read any good poetry lately? Did you get
ahold of any of Applewhtite's poetry?
Glenn+
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 14:21:16 -0400
To: <faithandlife@...>
From: "Frank Warren" <warren-sa@...>
Subject: Re: [FaithandLife] BICKNELL ON BAPTISM
Message-ID: <BAY103-DAV510B56F1A81B5C6F5652DE7CE0@...>
------=_NextPart_000_0323_01C59448.C7CCA180
Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
No, but Thomas Wolfe's "Look Homeward, Angel" is poetry. I've been =
trying to get Fr. Mark to read it -- if he has not already, since he =
lives in "Altamont" (Asheville).
I'm heading out in a minute two go to Suffolk to cook a pig.
Over and out!
Frank
----- Original Message -----=20
From: GMSpencer@...<mailto:GMSpencer@...>=20
To: faithandlife@...<mailto:faithandlife@...>=20
Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 2:08 PM
Subject: Re: [FaithandLife] BICKNELL ON BAPTISM
In a message dated 7/29/05 1:01:57 PM, =
warren-sa@...<mailto:warren-sa@...> writes:
> My copy is the third edition, revised by H.L. Carpenter, M.A., D.D. =
Bishop=20
> of Oxford, "New Impression" October 1963.
>=20
> I like it,
>=20
Dear Frank,
I do as well. By the way have you read any good poetry lately? Did you =
get=20
ahold of any of Applewhtite's poetry?
Glenn+
--
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faithandlife-unsubscribe@...<mailto:faithandlife-unsubscribe@as=
sociate.com>
--
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 09:33:18 -0700 (PDT)
To: faithandlife@...
From: charles scott <crscottblu@...>
Subject: the meaning of the new birth and spiritual gifts
Message-ID: <20050729163318.95703.qmail@...>
--0-1019058915-1122654798=:94417
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Mark+
With a view towards implementing the Christianity Explored outreach effort
in September, I determined after Synod to use the Sundays after Pentecost
to emphasize the work of the Holy Spirit in preparing the Christian for his
work in Christ. I started the series with John 1:1 and 3:16 emphasizing
that the life in the Spirit is Grace, it is the very gift of God Himself to
His people (Immanuel). The readings from Romans in succeeding weeks as
well as from the Gospels have provided ample opportunities for expaning on
the theme that the Spirit calls and prepares us for service.
Last year, there was none who helped when I canvassed the area around Good
Shepherd to let the community know we were there and they were welcome.
At a meeting Monday night, there were a 14 adults from Good Shepherd who
met to help in the planning for our fall effort. Three offered to open
their homes for the Christianity Explored meetings. Four offered to help
me in distributing material in the area around the church inviting our
neighbors to the inquirers meetings. Six offered to assist work as team
teachers, committing themselves to studying the material between now and
September 15. Four are assisting in planning media advertising and
mailings.
I found ++Ramsey's book, "Holy Spirit" held the kernel for a couple of the
sermons. And you are right, many are not used to thinking they have been
given spiritual gifts and are only beginning to see the possibilities. Five
of us at Good Shepherd came back from the Unity Synod convinced that the
Holy Spirit was manifested there and have been encouraged to expect the
work to continue.
Charles+
Mark Clavier+ <anglican@...> wrote:
Mike+,
This Sunday I'll finish up a 3-part sermon series that began with my
tackling the whole wheat and tares parable in conjunction with Romans 8. I
end up tying it all to the list in Galatians of the qualities of redeemed
human nature (love, peace, joy, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
gentleness, and self-control). As I was working on it, I found myself
beginning to tell people that these are the things they should aim for.
Pelagius was rearing his Welsh head. I backed up and talked about their
being fruits of the Spirit that can only come to us through prayer,
worship,
and the sacraments. Amazing the response I got from people. They'd never
been taught anything like that before.
Mark+
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 09:48:35 -0700 (PDT)
To: faithandlife@...
From: charles scott <crscottblu@...>
Subject: Re: [FaithandLife] No way APA webiste
Message-ID: <20050729164835.31008.qmail@...>
--0-1743116848-1122655715=:28981
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
John+
Sorry to be slow in responding to your request. I have no knowlege of who
put this on the 'net, nor do I want to have.
'The only thing I know is that none of the Christians I have met in the REC
would have done it.
My "Integrity" response was intended to be humorous. I don't take the
person who tries to sow tares in God's field seriously. We know that
harvest time will come.
Charles+
JADAGENCY@... wrote:Charles+,
Thanks for the response. Not sure of any names attached with their
propaganda and nonsense. Id like write them and simply ask.....And the
problem with
this is?
Let me know any additional info you may have. Thanks again.
Yours in JMJ,
JAD+
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 14:34:31 EDT
To: faithandlife@...
From: JADAGENCY@...
Subject: Re: [FaithandLife] No way APA webiste
Message-ID: <d9.2aa206b3.301bd0b7@...>
-------------------------------1122662071
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Charles+,
Thanks for you response. Yes, I surely agree with you. This merger will
be
difficult enough without those who take that position of the No way APA
website. I really would like to ask those people ...And the problem is?
JAD+
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 14:37:37 -0500
To: <faithandlife@...>
From: "William Griffin" <frwillg@...>
Subject: Re: faithandlife Digest 29 Jul 2005 15:40:31 -0000 Issue 818
Message-ID: <003201c59474$fa3c7330$e4bab1d8@MarleceGriffin>
Erich+
Thank you!
So well organized that even a liturgical klutz like meself can use it to
advantage.
Will+
----- Original Message -----
From: <faithandlife-digest-help@...>
To: <faithandlife@...>
Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 10:40 AM
Subject: faithandlife Digest 29 Jul 2005 15:40:31 -0000 Issue 818
> faithandlife Digest 29 Jul 2005 15:40:31 -0000 Issue 818
>
> Topics (messages 8386 through 8415):
>
> Lectionary Resource
> 8386 by: stmary.fdn.com
> 8393 by: Michael Ward
>
> the meaning of the new birth
> 8387 by: GMSpencer.aol.com
> 8388 by: Dominic Taranto
> 8389 by: charles scott
> 8394 by: Michael Ward
> 8396 by: GMSpencer.aol.com
> 8397 by: GMSpencer.aol.com
> 8398 by: Michael Ward
> 8399 by: Michael Ward
> 8400 by: GMSpencer.aol.com
> 8402 by: Michael Ward
> 8406 by: GMSpencer.aol.com
> 8407 by: Bigmac077.aol.com
> 8408 by: Mark Clavier+
> 8410 by: Mark Clavier+
> 8411 by: GMSpencer.aol.com
> 8412 by: Mark Clavier+
> 8413 by: Michael Ward
> 8414 by: Michael Ward
> 8415 by: Mark Clavier+
>
> No way APA webiste
> 8390 by: JADAGENCY.aol.com
> 8391 by: charles scott
> 8395 by: JADAGENCY.aol.com
> 8401 by: St. Mary's Church, Delray Beach
> 8403 by: Michael Ward
> 8404 by: JADAGENCY.aol.com
> 8409 by: GMSpencer.aol.com
>
> TG ITS FRIDAY FUNNY TIME
> 8392 by: charles scott
>
> Bp Brown
> 8405 by: Fr. Don Alley
>
> Administrivia:
>
> To subscribe to the digest, e-mail:
> faithandlife-digest-subscribe@...
>
> To unsubscribe from the digest, e-mail:
> faithandlife-digest-unsubscribe@...
>
> To post to the list, e-mail:
> faithandlife@...
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 21:42:37 -0400
> To: faithandlife@...
> From: stmary@...
> Subject: Lectionary Resource
> Message-ID: <1122601357.42e9898d0523f@...>
>
> Brothers,
>
> Thought those of you still using the BCP Lectionary at Holy Communion
(and
> even
> those who are not) might want to check out this excellent resource.
>
> http://lectionarycentral.com/
>
> Erich+
> --
> The Very Rev'd Erich A. Zwingert, SSC, Rector
> St. Mary the Virgin Anglican Church
> 101 Homewood Blvd., Delray Beach, FL 33445
> 561.265.1960
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 08:28:24 -0400
> To: <faithandlife@...>
> From: "Michael Ward" <mward@...>
> Subject: RE: [FaithandLife] Lectionary Resource
> Message-ID: <C952E09E1C13F74FA9B0ACEF856928D004EC50@...>
>
> Erich+
>
> Very cool!!! Wonder why Keble's link is blacked out?
>
> MLW+
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: stmary@... [mailto:stmary@...]
> Sent: Thursday, July 28, 2005 9:43 PM
> To: faithandlife@...
> Subject: [FaithandLife] Lectionary Resource
>
> Brothers,
>
> Thought those of you still using the BCP Lectionary at Holy Communion (and
> even
> those who are not) might want to check out this excellent resource.
>
> http://lectionarycentral.com/
>
> Erich+
> --
> The Very Rev'd Erich A. Zwingert, SSC, Rector
> St. Mary the Virgin Anglican Church
> 101 Homewood Blvd., Delray Beach, FL 33445
> 561.265.1960
>
> --
> To unsubscribe, send ANY message to:
> faithandlife-unsubscribe@...
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 22:35:54 EDT
> To: faithandlife@...
> From: GMSpencer@...
> Subject: the meaning of the new birth
> Message-ID: <1ac.3c76bdb3.301af00a@...>
>
> --part1_1ac.3c76bdb3.301af00a_boundary
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>
> Dear Fr. Mike:
>
> I have gone through the Baptismal service of the 1928 BCP and isolated
> 33=20
> statements that refer in some sense to the effect and benefit of Holy
> Baptis=
> m. I=20
> have grouped the statements into eight general categories and color
> coded=20
> them. If you don't pick up the color I have assigned a number to the
> categor=
> y.=20
> There are two numbers at the end of each citation. The first number is
the
> n=
> umber=20
> assigned to the category and the second number is the order of appearance
> in=
> =20
> the BCP of that categorical statement. For example the eleventh citation
> has=
> =20
> the numbers 1 (category) and 1 (order of appearance in the BCP).=20
>
> 1. "that which by nature he cannot have" 3 (1)
> 2. "baptized with Water and the Holy Ghost" 7 (1)
> 3. "received into Christ's holy Church" 4 (1)
> 4. "be made a living member of the same" 4 (2)=20
> 5. "remission of sin" 274 8 (1)
> 6. "spiritual regeneration" 3 (2)
> 7. "the everlasting benediction of they heavenly washing" 2 (1)
> 8. "Give thy Holy Spirit to this Child" 7 (2)
> 9. "That he may be born again" 3 (3)
> 10. "made an heir of everlasting salvation" 5 (1)
> 11. "die to sin and rise to newness of life" 278 1 (1)
> 12. "sinful affections may die in him" 1 (2)
> 13. "all things belonging to the Spirit may live and grow in him" 2 (2)
> 14. "power and strength to...triumph, against the devil, the world, and
> the=20
> flesh." 1 (3)
> 15. "dedicated to thee" 2 (3)
> 16. "endued with heavenly virtues" 2 (4)
> 17. "everlastingly rewarded" 6 (1)
> 18. "mystical washing away of sin" 8 (4)
> 19. "receive the fulness of grace" 2 (5)
> 20. "ever remain in the number of they faithful children" 5 (2)
> 21. "We receive this Child into the Congregation of Christ's flock" 4 (3)
> 22. "sign him with the sign of the Cross" (a soldier of Christ) 1 (4)
> 23. "this Child is regenerate" 3 (4)
> 24. "grafted into the body of Christ's Church" 4 (4)
> 25. "this beginning" 3 (5)=20
> 26. "that it hath pleased thee to regenerate this Child with thy Holy
> Spirit=
> "=20
> 3 (6)=20
> 27. "to receive him for thine own Child" 5 (3)
> 28. "to incorporate him into they holy Church" 4 (5)
> 29. "being dead to sin" 1 (5)
> 30. "live unto righteousness" 2 (6)
> 31. "buried with Christ in his death" 281 1 (6)
> 32. "may be partaker of his resurrection" 6 (2)
> 33. "he may be an inheritor of thine everlasting kingdom" 6 (3)
>
> Eight Categories of Meaning
>
> 1. There are six statements that refer to breaking sin's hold on the
> baptize=
> d=20
> person. Yellow
> 2. There are six statements that refer to the positive righteousness in
> the=20
> baptized. Turquoise
> 3. There are six statements that refer to spiritual regeneration or the
> New=20
> Birth. Duke Blue
> 4. There are five statements that refer to the reception of the baptized
> int=
> o=20
> the Church of God. Red
> 5. There are three statements that refer to the baptized as being made
> a=20
> Child of God. Peach
> 6. There are three eschatological references vis-=E0-vis the baptized
> child.=
> =20
> Periwinkle
> 7. There are two (three counting #26) statements that refer to the
> reception=
> =20
> of the Holy Spirit. Lime 8. There are two statements that refer to=20
> remission or forgiveness of sin. Green
>
> Conclusion: Baptism is the New Birth by which is meant Adoption as Sons
> of=20
> God, the reordering, through the supernatural action of the Holy Spirit
> upon=
> the=20
> soul of the baptized by which the faculties of the soul that were wounded
> in=
> =20
> the Fall are enlivened, renewed, and reoriented toward God, such that, we
> ma=
> y=20
> be forgiven our sins, but further that sin's hold upon the soul is broken
> an=
> d=20
> we are free not only to resist sin, but positively, truly to grow into
> the=20
> image and likeness of God not merely through imputation, but now, by the
> gra=
> ce of=20
> God, by real participation in the life of God. The true home of the
> baptized=
> =20
> is the Church of God who administered the life-giving sacrament by
> Christ's=20
> commandment and this Church abides in three states, Militant,
> Expectant,=20
> Triumphant, in whose fellowship we pray by God's grace to continue to our
> li=
> fe's end.=20
>
> This could use some refinement.=20
> Glenn+
>
> --
> To unsubscribe, send ANY message to:
> faithandlife-unsubscribe@...
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 21:07:13 -0700
> To: <faithandlife@...>
> From: "Dominic Taranto" <Dom_Joy@...>
> Subject: Re: [FaithandLife] the meaning of the new birth
> Message-ID: <BAY103-DAV54F3A5679FE9CAF8E42F880CE0@...>
>
> ------=_NextPart_000_0024_01C593B8.53989020
> Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1"
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>
> Glenn+,
>
> Thank you for posting this. I think that it is a very nicely done =
> project that will be a helpful starting point in putting together =
> various materials and lessons on baptism!
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Dominic Taranto+
> ----- Original Message -----=20
> From: GMSpencer@...<mailto:GMSpencer@...>=20
> To: faithandlife@...<mailto:faithandlife@...>=20
> Sent: Thursday, July 28, 2005 7:35 PM
> Subject: [FaithandLife] the meaning of the new birth
>
> Dear Fr. Mike:
>
> I have gone through the Baptismal service of the 1928 BCP and isolated =
> 33=20
> statements that refer in some sense to the effect and benefit of Holy =
> Baptism. I=20
> have grouped the statements into eight general categories and color =
> coded=20
> them. If you don't pick up the color I have assigned a number to the =
> category.=20
> There are two numbers at the end of each citation. The first number is =
> the number=20
> assigned to the category and the second number is the order of =
> appearance in=20
> the BCP of that categorical statement. For example the eleventh =
> citation has=20
> the numbers 1 (category) and 1 (order of appearance in the BCP).=20
>
> 1. "that which by nature he cannot have" 3 (1)
> 2. "baptized with Water and the Holy Ghost" 7 (1)
> 3. "received into Christ's holy Church" 4 (1)
> 4. "be made a living member of the same" 4 (2)=20
> 5. "remission of sin" 274 8 (1)
> 6. "spiritual regeneration" 3 (2)
> 7. "the everlasting benediction of they heavenly washing" 2 (1)
> 8. "Give thy Holy Spirit to this Child" 7 (2)
> 9. "That he may be born again" 3 (3)
> 10. "made an heir of everlasting salvation" 5 (1)
> 11. "die to sin and rise to newness of life" 278 1 (1)
> 12. "sinful affections may die in him" 1 (2)
> 13. "all things belonging to the Spirit may live and grow in him" 2 =
> (2)
> 14. "power and strength to...triumph, against the devil, the world, =
> and the=20
> flesh." 1 (3)
> 15. "dedicated to thee" 2 (3)
> 16. "endued with heavenly virtues" 2 (4)
> 17. "everlastingly rewarded" 6 (1)
> 18. "mystical washing away of sin" 8 (4)
> 19. "receive the fulness of grace" 2 (5)
> 20. "ever remain in the number of they faithful children" 5 (2)
> 21. "We receive this Child into the Congregation of Christ's flock" 4 =
> (3)
> 22. "sign him with the sign of the Cross" (a soldier of Christ) 1 =
> (4)
> 23. "this Child is regenerate" 3 (4)
> 24. "grafted into the body of Christ's Church" 4 (4)
> 25. "this beginning" 3 (5)=20
> 26. "that it hath pleased thee to regenerate this Child with thy Holy =
> Spirit"=20
> 3 (6)=20
> 27. "to receive him for thine own Child" 5 (3)
> 28. "to incorporate him into they holy Church" 4 (5)
> 29. "being dead to sin" 1 (5)
> 30. "live unto righteousness" 2 (6)
> 31. "buried with Christ in his death" 281 1 (6)
> 32. "may be partaker of his resurrection" 6 (2)
> 33. "he may be an inheritor of thine everlasting kingdom" 6 (3)
>
> Eight Categories of Meaning
>
> 1. There are six statements that refer to breaking sin's hold on the =
> baptized=20
> person. Yellow
> 2. There are six statements that refer to the positive righteousness =
> in the=20
> baptized. Turquoise
> 3. There are six statements that refer to spiritual regeneration or =
> the New=20
> Birth. Duke Blue
> 4. There are five statements that refer to the reception of the =
> baptized into=20
> the Church of God. Red
> 5. There are three statements that refer to the baptized as being made =
> a=20
> Child of God. Peach
> 6. There are three eschatological references vis-=E0-vis the baptized =
> child.=20
> Periwinkle
> 7. There are two (three counting #26) statements that refer to the =
> reception=20
> of the Holy Spirit. Lime 8. There are two statements that refer to=20
> remission or forgiveness of sin. Green
>
> Conclusion: Baptism is the New Birth by which is meant Adoption as =
> Sons of=20
> God, the reordering, through the supernatural action of the Holy =
> Spirit upon the=20
> soul of the baptized by which the faculties of the soul that were =
> wounded in=20
> the Fall are enlivened, renewed, and reoriented toward God, such that, =
> we may=20
> be forgiven our sins, but further that sin's hold upon the soul is =
> broken and=20
> we are free not only to resist sin, but positively, truly to grow into =
> the=20
> image and likeness of God not merely through imputation, but now, by =
> the grace of=20
> God, by real participation in the life of God. The true home of the =
> baptized=20
> is the Church of God who administered the life-giving sacrament by =
> Christ's=20
> commandment and this Church abides in three states, Militant, =
> Expectant,=20
> Triumphant, in whose fellowship we pray by God's grace to continue to =
> our life's end.=20
>
> This could use some refinement.=20
> Glenn+
>
> --
> To unsubscribe, send ANY message to: =
> faithandlife-unsubscribe@...<mailto:faithandlife-unsubscribe@as=
> sociate.com>
>
> --
> To unsubscribe, send ANY message to:
> faithandlife-unsubscribe@...
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 21:59:51 -0700 (PDT)
> To: faithandlife@...
> From: charles scott <crscottblu@...>
> Subject: the meaning of the new birth
> Message-ID: <20050729045951.5049.qmail@...>
>
> --0-871176754-1122613191=:4309
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
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> Fr. Spencer+
>
> Thank you for your analysis and exposition.
>
> We have had several young adults write or come to Good Shepherd recently,
> and I have attempted to find simple ways to present the Good News and the
> teachings of the church.
>
> Here is one that I'm working on in regard to baptism. It is a work in
> progress, the final paragraphs will deal with the theme "if any man is in
> Christ, there is a new creation" and will show how the new person in
> Christ, empowered and enlightened by the Holy Spirit, participates with
> God in the recreation and redemption of our culture, our world.
>
> Charles+
> ------------------------
>
> A PRIMER ON BAPTISM
>
>
>
> Baptism is a strange English word that comes from "baptizo", a Greek word
> that means to immerse in water.
>
>
>
> That bare definition gives not a clue as to what meanings is attached to
> the word by Christians or how it was understood by the first Christians.
> Some Christian teachers have called baptism a "rite of initiation." That
> is true enough, but that sounds like one is joining a college fraternity
> or the Masons. Baptism is a rite of initiation into the Christian
Church,
> but again, that doesn't tell us much.
>
>
>
> There are very ancient teachings, traditions handed on by the Jews, about
> God's dealings with the people of the world. Water was an important part
> of the story. In very ancient times, there was a flood so large that
it
> became legendary. Some American Indians had flood stories, but the one I
> refer to is in Genesis. The world had become a very evil place. Only
one
> man and his family were living righteously. As the old southern
spiritual
> goes, "Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord." The ancient evil world
> was destroyed by a flood. Noah, lived by faith, that is by trust in God.
> He followed God's instructions and constructed the ark in which he and
> his family was saved. (Heb 12)
>
>
>
> In his epistle to the "Sojourners of the Diaspora" (I Peter chapter 1-
> written to the New Israel), Peter retells the story and notes that Noah
> was "saved by water." The violent storms that lashed the earth and
> destroyed an evil civilization, lifted Noah and his family to safety.
> Peter says that in like manner, baptism saves the Christian. Baptism
> lifts him out of the evil world toward God and safety. From these
> writings of Peter, some Christians have referred to the Church as the
"ark
> of salvation." and to this day a part of the church building is called
the
> "nave". (Nave and navy are two English words derived from a Latin word
> "navis".) The Church is a place of sanctuary, of safety, but lets not
> limit our thought to a building, for as you will soon see, the place of
> safety to which baptism brings us is not a building, but the Body of
> Christ.
>
>
>
> Another ancient story, that of the Exodus of the Children of Israel from
> Egypt, involves water. Moses led the Israelites to safety through the
Red
> Sea, which overwhelmed the Egyptians, their horses and chariots. Jesus
> Christ was Jewish. So was Saint Paul and nearly all of the first
> generation of Christians. Paul used the story of the Exodus as a symbol
> of baptism. He refers to the flight from Egypt through the Red Seas as
> the baptism of the Israelites to Moses. A flight from an evil world to
> holy ground (I Corinthians 10:2). The follower of Christ leaves the
> world and going through the water of baptism enters Christ.
>
>
>
> Paul's most common explanation of Baptism relates the symbol to the
Death,
> Burial, and Resurrection of Jesus Christ. To Paul, the act of baptism
> recreates as in a play, the heart of the Gospel. Romans the 6th chapter
> relates in detail how the person who follows Jesus, accepts him as the
> King (Messiah) is buried with Christ by baptism into his death, and rises
> from that watery grave to walk with Christ in a new life.
>
>
>
> Paul's language is even stronger than that. He says we have died, our
old
> way of living is buried, we rise in Christ to live out his life. Paul
> says that we are all "children of God by faith in Christ Jesus." And,
"as
> many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There
is
> neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither
> male nor female,: for you are all one in Christ Jesus."
>
>
>
> Paul sees baptism as the first event in the new life of the Christian.
> Once he has believed Jesus is able to save, he relives the Gospel event.
> He symbolically dies in baptism, he is reborn in Christ to participate
> with God in recreating the world.
>
>
>
> In other places, as in the Acts of Apostles, baptism is identified with
> forgiveness of sins. (Acts 2:38)
>
>
>
> Jesus Christ himself instructed his followers to go to the whole world,
> preach the Gospel, inspire faith and baptize so that sins could be
> forgiven and men and women could find eternal life. (Matthew 28:18-20
and
> Mark 16:16). Jesus had promised his disciples, prior to His death, that
> though He had to go away, He would come to them.
>
>
>
> The Church has traditionally taught 7 sacraments; meaning 7 signs of
God's
> presence in the life of a person or a Church. Two of these were
> explicitly commanded by Jesus Christ and hence are called by English
> Churchmen, "Sacraments of the Gospel." These two signs of God's presence
> in our lives are baptism and The Lord's Supper (also called Eucharist or
> Communion). Christians observe these signs "to proclaim the Lord's death
> until He comes again." By baptism the Christian says I am one with
> Christ, the Spirit will inhabit this temple. Christ has stood at this
> hearts door and knocked, and I said, "come in." (Revelation) By
> regularly celebrating Eucharist I am saying to the world, He lives, He is
> here, and I am fed the Bread of Life.
>
>
>
> From the very first day of the Church, Baptism has been coupled with the
> remission of sins and the presence of the Holy Spirit in the life of a
> follower of Christ. After hearing Peter inform them that they had
> crucified the Messiah, some of the Jerusalem Jews "were cut to the heart
> and said to Peter and the apostles, "Friends, what are we to do?"
> "Repent, said Peter, "and be baptized in the name of Jesus the Messiah;
> then your sins will be forgiven and you will receive the gift of the Holy
> Spirit." (Acts 2:38) "And they continued steadfastly in the apostles
> teaching, the breaking of bread, and in prayers."
>
>
>
> Charles+
>
>
>
> GMSpencer@... wrote:I have gone through the Baptismal service of the
> 1928 BCP and isolated 33
> statements that refer in some sense to the effect and benefit of Holy
> Baptism. I
> have grouped the statements into eight general categories <snip>
>
> --
> To unsubscribe, send ANY message to:
> faithandlife-unsubscribe@...
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 09:00:23 -0400
> To: <faithandlife@...>
> From: "Michael Ward" <mward@...>
> Subject: FW: [FaithandLife] the meaning of the new birth
> Message-ID: <C952E09E1C13F74FA9B0ACEF856928D004EC51@...>
>
> Glenn+
>
> I'm not sure I'd refine it very much.
>
> But I do have a question: Are you trying to convince me of baptismal
> regeneration since I defended Drew's+ remarks about the prospective =
> promise
> of baptism? If you are, please remember that I only said that =
> historically,
> there has been a branch in the Church who has held that the promise in
> baptism is a prospective promise wherein one is presumed regenerate =
> until
> proven otherwise (contra the Baptists who presume one is not regenerate
> until proven otherwise). I didn't say that that was the position that I
> held.
>
> But I do understand the implications of the argument both ways. If =
> baptism
> always "works," then Joseph Stalin (who, I believe, was at one time a
> seminary student) would be enjoying the Beatific Vision right now. And =
> I
> don't think that any of us believes that. So, one must either hold that =
> one
> can lose the grace of baptism (a sort of semi-Pelagianism argument that =
> says
> that man's fallen will can over-ride God's transforming grace and is,
> therefore, greater than that transforming grace -- but an argument that =
> also
> flies in the face of all the "eternal security" passages in the Bible), =
> or
> one must believe that not all who are baptized are a true and =
> persevering
> part of God's Church (Augustine's very thorny position).
>
> Either way, at least as regards the question of apostasy, both positions
> lead to the same place: loss of eternal salvation in the end.
>
> MLW+
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: GMSpencer@... [mailto:GMSpencer@...]=20
> Sent: Thursday, July 28, 2005 10:36 PM
> To: faithandlife@...
> Subject: [FaithandLife] the meaning of the new birth
>
> Dear Fr. Mike:
>
> I have gone through the Baptismal service of the 1928 BCP and isolated =
> 33=20
> statements that refer in some sense to the effect and benefit of Holy
> Baptism. I=20
> have grouped the statements into eight general categories and color =
> coded=20
> them. If you don't pick up the color I have assigned a number to the
> category.=20
> There are two numbers at the end of each citation. The first number is =
> the
> number=20
> assigned to the category and the second number is the order of =
> appearance in
>
> the BCP of that categorical statement. For example the eleventh citation =
> has
>
> the numbers 1 (category) and 1 (order of appearance in the BCP).=20
>
> 1. "that which by nature he cannot have" 3 (1)
> 2. "baptized with Water and the Holy Ghost" 7 (1)
> 3. "received into Christ's holy Church" 4 (1)
> 4. "be made a living member of the same" 4 (2)=20
> 5. "remission of sin" 274 8 (1)
> 6. "spiritual regeneration" 3 (2)
> 7. "the everlasting benediction of they heavenly washing" 2 (1)
> 8. "Give thy Holy Spirit to this Child" 7 (2)
> 9. "That he may be born again" 3 (3)
> 10. "made an heir of everlasting salvation" 5 (1)
> 11. "die to sin and rise to newness of life" 278 1 (1)
> 12. "sinful affections may die in him" 1 (2)
> 13. "all things belonging to the Spirit may live and grow in him" 2 (2)
> 14. "power and strength to...triumph, against the devil, the world, and =
> the=20
> flesh." 1 (3)
> 15. "dedicated to thee" 2 (3)
> 16. "endued with heavenly virtues" 2 (4)
> 17. "everlastingly rewarded" 6 (1)
> 18. "mystical washing away of sin" 8 (4)
> 19. "receive the fulness of grace" 2 (5)
> 20. "ever remain in the number of they faithful children" 5 (2)
> 21. "We receive this Child into the Congregation of Christ's flock" 4 =
> (3)
> 22. "sign him with the sign of the Cross" (a soldier of Christ) 1 (4)
> 23. "this Child is regenerate" 3 (4)
> 24. "grafted into the body of Christ's Church" 4 (4)
> 25. "this beginning" 3 (5)=20
> 26. "that it hath pleased thee to regenerate this Child with thy Holy
> Spirit"=20
> 3 (6)=20
> 27. "to receive him for thine own Child" 5 (3)
> 28. "to incorporate him into they holy Church" 4 (5)
> 29. "being dead to sin" 1 (5)
> 30. "live unto righteousness" 2 (6)
> 31. "buried with Christ in his death" 281 1 (6)
> 32. "may be partaker of his resurrection" 6 (2)
> 33. "he may be an inheritor of thine everlasting kingdom" 6 (3)
>
> Eight Categories of Meaning
>
> 1. There are six statements that refer to breaking sin's hold on the
> baptized=20
> person. Yellow
> 2. There are six statements that refer to the positive righteousness in =
> the=20
> baptized. Turquoise
> 3. There are six statements that refer to spiritual regeneration or the =
> New=20
> Birth. Duke Blue
> 4. There are five statements that refer to the reception of the baptized
> into=20
> the Church of God. Red
> 5. There are three statements that refer to the baptized as being made a =
>
> Child of God. Peach
> 6. There are three eschatological references vis-=E0-vis the baptized =
> child.=20
> Periwinkle
> 7. There are two (three counting #26) statements that refer to the =
> reception
>
> of the Holy Spirit. Lime 8. There are two statements that refer to=20
> remission or forgiveness of sin. Green
>
> Conclusion: Baptism is the New Birth by which is meant Adoption as Sons =
> of=20
> God, the reordering, through the supernatural action of the Holy Spirit =
> upon
> the=20
> soul of the baptized by which the faculties of the soul that were =
> wounded in
>
> the Fall are enlivened, renewed, and reoriented toward God, such that, =
> we
> may=20
> be forgiven our sins, but further that sin's hold upon the soul is =
> broken
> and=20
> we are free not only to resist sin, but positively, truly to grow into =
> the=20
> image and likeness of God not merely through imputation, but now, by the
> grace of=20
> God, by real participation in the life of God. The true home of the =
> baptized
>
> is the Church of God who administered the life-giving sacrament by =
> Christ's=20
> commandment and this Church abides in three states, Militant, Expectant, =
>
> Triumphant, in whose fellowship we pray by God's grace to continue to =
> our
> life's end.=20
>
> This could use some refinement.=20
> Glenn+
>
> --
> To unsubscribe, send ANY message to: =
> faithandlife-unsubscribe@...
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 09:31:09 EDT
> To: faithandlife@...
> From: GMSpencer@...
> Subject: Re: FW: [FaithandLife] the meaning of the new birth
> Message-ID: <1f8.eb57841.301b899d@...>
>
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> In a message dated 7/29/05 8:56:39 AM, mward@... writes:
>
>> But I do have a question: Are you trying to convince me of baptismal
>> regeneration since I defended Drew's+ remarks about the prospective
>> promise
>> of baptism?
>>
>
> Not at all, I understand that you take a historic Catholic position. But
> at
> the end of one of our exchanges the other day you ask me how I meant the
> term:
> revivalistic or sacramental. So I decided to look at our baptismal text
> (lex
> orandi/lex credendi) and see if I could determine on the basis of specific
> phrases where the weight of the text took me. I've always meant it
> sacramentally,
> but I wanted to bracket that for a moment and return to the text. Still, I
> admit, that I cannot approach the text without presuppositions, however I
> was
> kind of surprised by the weight given specific concepts when I drew the
> phrases
> out and listed them. For me the biggest surprise was the number of
> references
> that refer in some way the baptism and the breaking of sin's power over
> the
> soul. It relies heavily upon the NT. The absurdity of continuing in sin
> after
> baptism is especially illuminated by St. Paul in Romans 6. I was
surprised
> that
> this was so prominent in the baptismal text when set next to, for
example,
> the
> notion of forgiveness of sin. There is an assumed, very strong, moral
> (probably not the best word) element to baptism, but, taking the other
> categories into
> consideration, it isn't "moralistic," or mere "moral effort," but more to
> "family character?" I think.
> Glenn
>
> --
> To unsubscribe, send ANY message to:
> faithandlife-unsubscribe@...
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 09:39:15 EDT
> To: faithandlife@...
> From: GMSpencer@...
> Subject: Re: FW: [FaithandLife] the meaning of the new birth
> Message-ID: <15.49b676c4.301b8b83@...>
>
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>
> In a message dated 7/29/05 8:56:39 AM, mward@... writes:
>
>> If baptism
>> always "works," then Joseph Stalin (who, I believe, was at one time a
>> seminary student) would be enjoying the Beatific Vision right now.=A0
>>=20
>
> That would only be the case if the spiritual benefits of baptism, like=20
> regeneration, cannot be lost and we know from the liturgical texts of the
> BC=
> P that=20
> is the case that those benefits can be lost eternally. It is a shame
> that=20
> Stalin and Hitler were baptized, and if rightly performed, grafted into
> the=20=
> body of=20
> Christ's Church, but they did not remain so. Branches