I understood Derick's post to be an invitation for the dispensational brothers on the forum to do that very thing. At the conference I went to last week one of the pastors used a great illustration to highlight the difference. I will do my best to recount it. In 1905 a man promised his 5 year old son that he would give him a horse on his 25th birthday so that he could ride all over the country side and travel wherever he wanted. In 1925 on the young man's 25th birthday his father gave him a brand new 1925 Ford Model T (this was before the boycott on Ford for their support of homosexual causes ... :-) ). Did the man break his promise to his son? Or did he improve on the promise and give him something much better than the boy could have imagined 20 years before. Unfortunately the hard lined literalist would be demanding the horse rather than appreciating the car which was far more magnificent. The illustration has it's limits and I am not sure if I got it word for word but hopefully you get the idea. Peace, Steve Pastor David Warner wrote: > Maybe this statement should have been sent with this post rather than > the PoMo one Jeff sent earlier. > > "The article was interesting but it was too bad that all of his > information was self serving and full of holes!" > Bahahahahaha > > What I would like to do is to compare this with what a > Dispensationalists would say about himself. > > DW > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Derick Dickens [mailto:Derick@...] > Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2005 4:09 PM > To: pastorsforum@... > Subject: [PastorsForum] Dispensationalism--Theological Systems Compared > > I am resending this to the group because of our current discussion. > I would be willing to discuss any and all these points in light of > our conversation. Any point I would be willing to take either the > Covenant or NCT stand on the issue. > > > > Theological Systems Compared > > > > Dispensationalism - Progressive Dispensationalism - Covenant > Theology - New Covenant Theology > > Legend: > DISP - Dispensationalism > PD - Progressive Dispensationalism > CT - Covenant Theology > NCT - New Covenant Theology > > Definition of Terms: > Physical Israel - the nation of Jews, physical descendants of > Abraham through Isaac and Jacob > Spiritual Israel - the elect of God, all those in Christ, whether > Jew or Gentile > Universal Church - spiritual Israel, all the elect of God from all time > Visible Church - a local assembly of baptized believers in Christ, > joined by covenant for worship and fellowship > > 1. Stance regarding the Doctrines of Grace > > DISP - Usually not Calvinistic > PD - Some not Calvinistic > CT - Almost Always Calvinistic > NCT - Same as CT > > 2. Interpretation of the Scriptures > > DISP - Literal Interpretation > PD - Same as DISP > CT - Literal or Figurative, depending on context > NCT - Same as CT > > 3. "Analogy of Faith" > > DISP - Does not accept AoF > PD - Same as DISP > CT - Usually accepts AoF > NCT - Same as CT > > 4. Israel > > DISP - Physical descendants of Jacob > PD - Same as CT > CT - Physical descendants of Jacob, or spiritual descendants of > Abraham, depending on context > NCT - Same as CT > > 5. Israel in Galatians 6:16 > > DISP - Physical descendants of Jacob only > PD - Physical descendants of Jacob that are in Christ (Jewish > Believers - physical and spiritual) > CT - Spiritual Israel, parallel to Gal. 3:29; Rom. 2:28-29; 9:6; > Phil. 3:3 > NCT - Same as CT > > 6. Israel and the Church > > DISP - Two distinct groups of God's people with separate destinies > PD - Same as CT > CT - God's elect are "one people", the Universal Church has always > existed > NCT - In OT, believers are called simply "the elect of Israel", not > the Church. NCT doesn't recognize a Church in the OT, such as in the > NT. In Matt 16:18, Jesus said that He will build His Church. There > is but one people of God of whom natural Israel was the typical > foreshadowing. So, the Church is the "New Israel." > > 7. Birth of the Church > > DISP - Born at Pentecost, separate from Israel > PD - Visible Church Born at Pentecost as an extension of God's > program for Israel > CT - Born in the OT and reached fulfillment in the NT > NCT - Same as DISP > > 8. The Church in OT Prophecy > > DISP - No, it was a mystery, hidden until the NT > PD - Same as CT > CT - Yes, there are many direct OT prophecies of the NT Church > NCT - Same as CT > > 9. Israel in OT Prophecy > > DISP - All OT prophesies for Israel are for the nation and have > nothing to do with the Church > PD - Same as CT > CT - Some OT prophecies are for the nation of Israel, others for > spiritual Israel > NCT - Same as CT > > 10. God's Main Purpose in History > > DISP - Physical Israel > PD - "that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might > gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in > heaven and which are on earth -- in Him" > CT - Christ, and by extension the Church > NCT - Same as CT > > 11. The Church and God's Program > > DISP - The Church is a parenthesis in God's program (a mystery) > PD - The Church is a progressive and integral part of His dealing > with physical Israel > CT - The Church is the culmination of God's saving purpose through > the ages > NCT - Same as CT > > 12. The True Heir to Abraham's Covenant > > DISP - Isaac and physical Israel > PD - Physical and Spiritual Israel, including the Church > CT - Christ, the Seed, and thus all those in Christ (spiritual Israel) > NCT - Same as CT > > 13. Covenant of Redemption within the Trinity > > DISP - There is no such covenant > PD - Same as DISP > CT - This covenant effected election > NCT - No such covenant, but there was an eternal decree for > redemption within the Trinity (a determination and plan to save) > > 14. Covenant of Works with Adam > > DISP - No > PD - Same as CT > CT - God made a conditional covenant of works with Adam as a > representative for all his natural descendants > NCT - No, but Adam is a representative for all his natural descendants > > 15. Covenant of Grace concerning Adam > > DISP - No > PD - No > CT - God made a Covenant of Grace with Christ and His people, > including Adam > NCT - Does not believe in using the term "Covenant of Grace", as the > term is not found anywhere in Scriptures. NCT believes that only > when the Bible stipulates that a Covenant has been "cut" between God > and man, is there a Biblical reason for believing that one has been > made. This is not to say that God isn't gracious to man in "cutting" > a covenant with him; but that the term itself is never found in > Scriptures, and thus should not be used, especially when describing > the Mosaic Covenant, which was a law covenant. > > 16. Israel and the Mosaic Covenant > > DISP - Israel accepted the Covenant at Sinai with little thought > PD - Same as CT > CT - Israel was meant to accept the Covenant at Sinai > NCT - Israel was so frightened at Sinai that they would have > accepted anything > > 17. The New Covenant and Israel > > DISP - In Jer. 31:31-34 is only for physical Israel > PD - Only for physical Israel, but the Church has been made part of > the New Covenant > CT - The New Covenant of Jer. 31 is the same as Luke 22:20, both are > for spiritual Israel according to Hebrews 8 > NCT - Same as CT > > 18. God's Program and "Dispensations" > > DISP - God works through separate dispensations > PD - Same as DISP > CT - God works through separate but related covenants > NCT - God works through separate but related covenants, but the New > Covenant fulfills or brings to their ultimate realization all others > because they are all realized/fulfilled in Christ > > 19. Salvation of OT Saints > > DISP - Some saved by works > PD - Same as CT > CT - All who are saved are saved by grace alone through faith alone > in Christ alone > NCT - Same as CT > > 20. Faith is Christ as a Sin-Bearer > > DISP - No > PD - Same as CT > CT - All who are saved are saved by faith in Christ as Sin-Bearer > NCT - Same as CT > > 21. OT Sacrifices > > DISP - The OT sacrifices were not recognized as the Gospel or types > of the Messiah as sin-bearer, but only seen as such in retrospect. > PD - Same as CT > CT - OT believers believed in the Gospel of Messiah as sin-bearer > mainly by the sacrifices as types and prophecies. > NCT - Same as CT > > 22. Indwelling of the Holy Spirit > > DISP - Indwells believers only in the Dispensation of Grace, not in > the OT or after the rapture > PD - Same as DISP > CT - Indwells all believers in all ages, never withdrawn > NCT - Believe that the indwelling wasn't the same as in the Church > time. In John 13:16-18, Jesus said that He would send the comforter > that He may "abide" (live) with them forever. If the Holy Spirit was > already "abiding" with them, as with the Church after Pentecost, > then that promise means nothing. > > 23. The Kingdom of God and Israel > > DISP - Jesus offered the literal Kingdom to physical Israel but the > offer was rejected and therefore postponed > PD - Jesus offered the literal Kingdom to physical Israel. Only a > small remnant accepted it. The physical nation of Israel will come > to believe and be made part of the literal Kingdom in the Millennial > Reign > CT - Jesus offered a spiritual Kingdom which was rejected by > physical Israel but has been gradually accepted by spiritual Israel > NCT - Same as CT > > 24. OT Believers and the Body/Bride of Christ > > DISP - OT believers were not in Christ, and therefore not part of > the Body/Bride > PD - Same as CT > CT - Believers in all ages are in Christ and part of the Body/Bride > NCT - Same as CT, except they do not see the church in existence > until Pentecost. > > 25. OT Law > > DISP - The OT Law has been abolished for the Church. Physical Israel > will be under the Law after the rapture. > PD - Same as DISP > CT - OT Law serves 3 purposes: 1) restraining sin in society, 2) > leading to Christ, and 3) for instruction in godliness. The > ceremonial law and civic law is abolished. The moral law continues > to be in force. > NCT - OT Law is binding only as interpreted, applied, and in some > cases even expanded in the NT. The OT Law is there to serve as a > tutor, exposing our sinfulness and our need for the Savior. Christ > is affirmed as being "The New Law-Giver", as opposed to Moses who > was "The Old Law-Giver". > > 26. OT Law and the Church > > DISP - OT Laws are only in effect if repeated in the NT > PD - Same as DISP > CT - OT Laws are in effect unless abrogated > NCT - OT laws are in effect as reiterated by Jesus and the NT writers > > 27. The Kingdom of God > > DISP - The Millennial Reign is the Kingdom of God > PD - Same as DISP > CT - The Church is the Kingdom of God > NCT - The Church since Pentecost is the Kingdom of God > > 28. Millennial Reign > > DISP - Literal thousand years on earth - pre-mil > PD - Same as DISP > CT - Millennial reign is figurative for the current age - amil, some > post-mil, a few historic pre-mil > NCT - Same as CT > > 29. OT Sacrifices > > DISP - restored in the Millennial reign as a memorial > PD - Same as CT > CT - fulfilled in Christ and forever replaced by Him > NCT - Same as CT > > 30. The Future of Israel > > DISP - Physical Israel has a future > PD - Same as DISP > CT - Some hold to a future for physical Israel, but most do not > NCT - Same as CT > > 31. The Millennium and the Covenant with Abraham > > DISP - The Millennium is the fulfillment of the Abrahamic Covenant > PD - Same as DISP > CT - Christ fulfilled the Abrahamic Covenant > NCT - Same as CT > > 32. David's Throne > > DISP - Jesus will sit on David's throne during the Millennium, the > saints ruling with Him > PD - Jesus is sitting on David's throne now at the right hand of the > Father > CT - Christ sits on the Throne of Heaven. Saints rule under Him in > spirit > NCT - Same as CT > > 33. Baptism > > DISP - Believer's baptism and some disp Presbyterians who baptize > infants > PD - Same as DISP > CT - Most embrace infant baptism, except Baptists who are Covenantal > NCT - Believer's baptism only > > Analysis: > > Number of positions unique to each system: > (only that system holds the belief in question) > > DISP - 20 > PD - 8 > CT - 9 > NCT - 4 > > Number of times there is agreement between systems: > > DISP and PD - 13 > DISP and CT - 0 > DISP and NCT - 3 > PD and CT - 11 > PD and NCT - 10 > CT and NCT - 20