Derick, if a man falls into the Fraser River, and I offer him my hand, if he decides to take my hand I could save him. If he rejects my hand I can't save him. If the Holy Spirit (who is God) convicts a man of his sin, and the man repents of his sin and trust Jesus Christ (who is God) to forgive his sin and give him eternal life. This is salvation of God. How is a man able to repent of his sin and trust Christ, because of the Word of God which gives faith. From start to finish, Salvation is of the LORD. God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit and the Word of God. Is able to help a man know the Will of God. And that is to repent and be saved. Jeff > > David, > > We are called to repent but that does not equal "Free Will" in the > arminean sense. Remember Romans 3:10-11 > > There is none righteous, no not one > THere is none who understands; > There is none who seeks after God > > Jesus said in John 6:44 > No one can come to the Me unless the Father who sent me draws him; and I > will raise him up on the last day. > > John 6:37 > > All that the father gives Me will come to me, and the one who comes to > Me I will by no means cast out. > > In other words, the BIble says that not just anyone can come to the SOn. > Yet, all who come were drawn. All who were drawn will not be cast out. > > The issue you are using Doc, is called Compatiblelism. There is a sense > we call men to repentance. There is a sense that we see people here on > earth repent. That is true. Yet, in all realization, they can not come > unless God draws them. Both exist... without both we are left with a > theology that is based upon man not God... or we are left with fatalism > without responsibility. Overall, though, God is the one who saves... > not my fallen decision. > > And, again, I will reiterate. If God cannot save someone, why pray for > someone's salvation? > > Derick > > -----Original Message----- > From: DAVID POWELL [mailto:dpowellaz@...] > Sent: Thursday, October 06, 2005 3:26 PM > To: pastorsforum@... > Subject: Re: [PastorsForum] Prayer of One or Many > > > Your arguments are sounding more Calvanistic all the time! God does > know everything, ie. foreknowledge. If there is no free will then why > is man commanded to repent. If there be no free will then why do we > ever pray for salvation, even our own. It shows in James 4:2b that man > is responsible for not getting what he wants because he does not ask. > Love You Brother > Doc > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Derick Dickens <mailto:Derick@...> > To: pastorsforum@... > Sent: Wednesday, October 05, 2005 6:59 PM > Subject: RE: [PastorsForum] Prayer of One or Many > > Jeff, > > No, that is what you are saying. You say that our prayers are more > powerful than God's Soveriengty. I am saying that we should have a > passion and desire for the lost. We should pray that they be saved. If > God is not Soveriegn, though, then our prayers are useless. If I pray > for someone to be saved and God is not powerful enough to make it > happen, then why pray???? Of course, if I pray that man be saved and it > is not up to God but the person... then why pray? I pray knowing full > well that My God is able and willing to accomplish all that I ask for > and more. Yet, sometimes God won't fulfill the prayer. Why? Because > it is not in His good will. > > > > > > Derick Dickens <http://www.thedickensfamily.org/> > > > Pastor Wallers Baptist Church > PO Box 95 > <http://maps.yahoo.com/py/maps.py?Pyt=Tmap&addr=PO+Box+95&csz=Partlow+VA > +22534&country=us> > Partlow VA 22534 > derick@... > www.thedickensfamily.org <http://www.thedickensfamily.org/> > tel: > mobile: 540-582-5703 > 540-894-1772 > > > <http://www.plaxo.com/signature> Signature powered by Plaxo > <http://www.plaxo.com/signature> Want a signature like this? > <https://www.plaxo.com/add_me?u=21475105341&v0=517300&k0=393677647> Add > me to your address book... > > -----Original Message----- > From: Jeff Hallmark [mailto:bc_preacher@...] > Sent: Wednesday, October 05, 2005 5:01 PM > To: pastorsforum@... > Subject: RE: [PastorsForum] Prayer of One or Many > > > Derick, > > > > > > Jeff, > > So are you saying that our prayers are more effective that God's Spirit? > I believe God causes us to pray for what He is about to do, not that we > pray and then God does something. > > So what do you think of Paul's prayer and desire for Isreal? Was it more > effective that God's Spirit? > > > I have addressed II Peter 2 many times. Essentially, I believe it is a > better Reformed verse than Arminean. Why? In context, it is on the > heals of talking about those who will be destroyed and that Christians > should remain faithful even through mocking that Christ has not come > again. Why? Because God is not slack concerning his promises (of > redeeming His people) but is longsuffering towars US. Not willing any > (of us) should perish but that all should come to repentance. This is > talking about the elect, not talking about those who will be destroyed. > > > > I believe it is a Bible verse. Like these below. > > > > 1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the > knowledge of the truth. 1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator > between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 1Ti 2:6 Who gave himself a > ransom for all, to be testified in due time. > > Heb 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels > for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by > the grace of God should taste death for every man. > > 1Jo 4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to > be the Saviour of the world. > > Jeff > > Derick > > > > > > Derick Dickens <http://www.thedickensfamily.org/> > > > Pastor Wallers Baptist Church > PO Box 95 > <http://maps.yahoo.com/py/maps.py?Pyt=Tmap&addr=PO+Box+95&csz=Partlow+VA > +22534&country=us> > Partlow VA 22534 > derick@... > www.thedickensfamily.org <http://www.thedickensfamily.org/> > tel: > mobile: 540-582-5703 > 540-894-1772 > > > <http://www.plaxo.com/signature> Signature powered by Plaxo > <http://www.plaxo.com/signature> Want a signature like this? > <https://www.plaxo.com/add_me?u=21475105341&v0=517300&k0=393677647> Add > me to your address book... > > -----Original Message----- > From: Jeff Hallmark [mailto:bc_preacher@...] > Sent: Wednesday, October 05, 2005 2:33 PM > To: pastorsforum@... > Subject: Re: [PastorsForum] Prayer of One or Many > > > > The old radio preacher, used to say "Prayer changes things". I would > hear that and say to myself, "No, prayer brings about the Will of God". > > > God's will is for folks to be saved, our prayers for the lost brings > this about. > > 2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count > slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should > perish, but that all should come to repentance. > > Rom 10:1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, > that they might be saved. > > > > > > Mike, > Prayer is that we would cling and grow in our utter dependence upon God. > every good and perfect gift comes from His hand. God wants us to pray > because through prayer we show God that we need Him. Also, prayer is > not that we would get what we want - but rather what God wants us to > have - we are, like Christ, to submit our will to His will. BTW Mike > what theological viewpoint are you coming from on this? > > Peace, > Steve > > Mike Cantrell wrote: > > I realize this I come from a different theological viewpoint on this > matter. However, I see prayer having more significance that just to > develop us more. If prayer does not claim God's attention and bring into > the situation being prayed His power, then it would be of little value > in the life of the believer from a human perspective. > > Mike Cantrell > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Derick Dickens <mailto:Derick@...> > To: pastorsforum@... > Sent: Wednesday, October 05, 2005 12:05 PM > Subject: RE: [PastorsForum] Prayer of One or Many > > Mike, > > Again, the situation is not that they were persistent so to "Change > God's Mind" but that God used the situation to develop them more. Yet, > from a human perspective, it seems like persistence pays off or that > following through was beneficial. This is good in encouraging us to let > the situation draw us closer to God. I don't think we would say God was > limited in his knowledge of the future, which is the obvious flip side > to this argument. Thus, we can say that God knew it all along but used > it to develop us. > > Derick > > > > > > Derick Dickens <http://www.thedickensfamily.org/> > > > > Pastor Wallers Baptist Church > PO Box 95 > <http://maps.yahoo.com/py/maps.py?Pyt=Tmap&addr=PO+Box+95&csz=Partlow+VA > +22534&country=us> > Partlow VA 22534 > derick@... > www.thedickensfamily.org <http://www.thedickensfamily.org/> > tel: > mobile: 540-582-5703 > 540-894-1772 > > > > <http://www.plaxo.com/signature> Signature powered by Plaxo > <http://www.plaxo.com/signature> Want a signature like this? > <https://www.plaxo.com/add_me?u=21475105341&v0=517300&k0=393677647> Add > me to your address book... > > > > -- > > To unsubscribe, send ANY message to: > pastorsforum-unsubscribe@... > > > > "In essential things, unity; in non-essential things, liberty; and in > all things, charity." > > > > > -- > > To unsubscribe, send ANY message to: > pastorsforum-unsubscribe@... > > > > "In essential things, unity; in non-essential things, liberty; and in > all things, charity." > > > > > -- > > To unsubscribe, send ANY message to: > pastorsforum-unsubscribe@... > > > > "In essential things, unity; in non-essential things, liberty; and in > all things, charity." > > > > -- > > To unsubscribe, send ANY message to: > pastorsforum-unsubscribe@... > > > > "In essential things, unity; in non-essential things, liberty; and in > all things, charity." > > > > -- > To unsubscribe, send ANY message to: pastorsforum-unsubscribe@... > > "In essential things, unity; in non-essential things, liberty; and > in all things, charity."