In order to be dead one must first have life. how many dead men do you know that at one time did not have life? Jeff > > Jeff, > > There is a difference. The Holy Spirit can convict, but this still is > not drawing. The Holy Spirit can convict, but this still goes back to > Romans 3:11, no one seeks after God. The Bible says we are dead in our > sins and trespasses. The illustration is better stated as such. A dead > man lied on the ground. God came and gave him life. That is salvation. > > Derick > > -----Original Message----- > From: Jeff Hallmark [mailto:bc_preacher@...] > Sent: Thursday, October 06, 2005 3:55 PM > To: pastorsforum@... > Subject: RE: [PastorsForum] Prayer of One or Many > > > Derick, if a man falls into the Fraser River, and I offer him my hand, > if he decides to take my hand I could save him. If he rejects my hand I > can't save him. > > If the Holy Spirit (who is God) convicts a man of his sin, and the man > repents of his sin and trust Jesus Christ (who is God) to forgive his > sin and give him eternal life. This is salvation of God. > > How is a man able to repent of his sin and trust Christ, because of the > Word of God which gives faith. > > > From start to finish, Salvation is of the LORD. > > God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit and the Word of God. Is > able to help a man know the Will of God. And that is to repent and be > saved. > > Jeff > > > > > David, > > > > We are called to repent but that does not equal "Free Will" in > > the arminean sense. Remember Romans 3:10-11 > > > > There is none righteous, no not one > > THere is none who understands; > > There is none who seeks after God > > > > Jesus said in John 6:44 > > No one can come to the Me unless the Father who sent me draws him; and > > > I will raise him up on the last day. > > > > John 6:37 > > > > All that the father gives Me will come to me, and the one who comes to > > > Me I will by no means cast out. > > > > In other words, the BIble says that not just anyone can come to > > the SOn. Yet, all who come were drawn. All who were drawn will > > not be cast out. > > > > The issue you are using Doc, is called Compatiblelism. There is > > a sense we call men to repentance. There is a sense that we see > > people here on earth repent. That is true. Yet, in all > > realization, they can not come unless God draws them. Both > > exist... without both we are > > > left with a theology that is based upon man not God... or we are > > left with fatalism without responsibility. Overall, though, God > > is the one > > > who saves... not my fallen decision. > > > > And, again, I will reiterate. If God cannot save someone, why > > pray for someone's salvation? > > > > Derick > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: DAVID POWELL [mailto:dpowellaz@...] > > Sent: Thursday, October 06, 2005 3:26 PM > > To: pastorsforum@... > > Subject: Re: [PastorsForum] Prayer of One or Many > > > > > > Your arguments are sounding more Calvanistic all the time! God > > does know everything, ie. foreknowledge. If there is no free > > will then why > > > is man commanded to repent. If there be no free will then why do > > we ever pray for salvation, even our own. It shows in James 4:2b > > that man is responsible for not getting what he wants because he > > does not ask. Love You Brother Doc > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Derick Dickens <mailto:Derick@...> > > To: pastorsforum@... > > Sent: Wednesday, October 05, 2005 6:59 PM > > Subject: RE: [PastorsForum] Prayer of One or Many > > > > Jeff, > > > > No, that is what you are saying. You say that our prayers are > > more powerful than God's Soveriengty. I am saying that we should > > have a passion and desire for the lost. We should pray that they > > be saved. If God is not Soveriegn, though, then our prayers are > > useless. If I pray for someone to be saved and God is not > > powerful enough to make it > > > happen, then why pray???? Of course, if I pray that man be saved > > and it is not up to God but the person... then why pray? I pray > > knowing full well that My God is able and willing to accomplish > > all that I ask > > > for and more. Yet, sometimes God won't fulfill the prayer. Why? > > Because it is not in His good will. > > > > > > > > > > > > Derick Dickens <http://www.thedickensfamily.org/> > > > > > > Pastor Wallers Baptist Church > > PO Box 95 > > <http://maps.yahoo.com/py/maps.py?Pyt=Tmap&addr=PO+Box+95&csz=Partlow+ > > VA > > +22534&country=us> > > Partlow VA 22534 > > derick@... > > www.thedickensfamily.org <http://www.thedickensfamily.org/> > > tel: > > mobile: 540-582-5703 > > 540-894-1772 > > > > > > <http://www.plaxo.com/signature> Signature powered by Plaxo > > <http://www.plaxo.com/signature> Want a signature like this? > > <https://www.plaxo.com/add_me?u=21475105341&v0=517300&k0=393677647> > Add > > me to your address book... > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Jeff Hallmark [mailto:bc_preacher@...] > > Sent: Wednesday, October 05, 2005 5:01 PM > > To: pastorsforum@... > > Subject: RE: [PastorsForum] Prayer of One or Many > > > > > > Derick, > > > > > > > > > > > > Jeff, > > > > So are you saying that our prayers are more effective that God's > > Spirit? I believe God causes us to pray for what He is about to > > do, not that we pray and then God does something. > > > > So what do you think of Paul's prayer and desire for Isreal? Was > > it more effective that God's Spirit? > > > > > > I have addressed II Peter 2 many times. Essentially, I believe > > it is a better Reformed verse than Arminean. Why? In context, > > it is on the > > > heals of talking about those who will be destroyed and that Christians > > > should remain faithful even through mocking that Christ has not > > come again. Why? Because God is not slack concerning his > > promises (of redeeming His people) but is longsuffering towars > > US. Not willing any > > > (of us) should perish but that all should come to repentance. This is > > > talking about the elect, not talking about those who will be destroyed. > > > > > > > > I believe it is a Bible verse. Like these below. > > > > > > > > 1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the > > knowledge of the truth. 1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one > > mediator > > > between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 1Ti 2:6 Who gave > > himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time. > > > > Heb 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the > > angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; > > that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man. > > > > 1Jo 4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the > > Son to be the Saviour of the world. > > > > Jeff > > > > Derick > > > > > > > > > > > > Derick Dickens <http://www.thedickensfamily.org/> > > > > > > Pastor Wallers Baptist Church > > PO Box 95 > > <http://maps.yahoo.com/py/maps.py?Pyt=Tmap&addr=PO+Box+95&csz=Partlow+ > > VA > > +22534&country=us> > > Partlow VA 22534 > > derick@... > > www.thedickensfamily.org <http://www.thedickensfamily.org/> > > tel: > > mobile: 540-582-5703 > > 540-894-1772 > > > > > > <http://www.plaxo.com/signature> Signature powered by Plaxo > > <http://www.plaxo.com/signature> Want a signature like this? > > <https://www.plaxo.com/add_me?u=21475105341&v0=517300&k0=393677647> > Add > > me to your address book... > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Jeff Hallmark [mailto:bc_preacher@...] > > Sent: Wednesday, October 05, 2005 2:33 PM > > To: pastorsforum@... > > Subject: Re: [PastorsForum] Prayer of One or Many > > > > > > > > The old radio preacher, used to say "Prayer changes things". I > > would hear that and say to myself, "No, prayer brings about the > > Will of God". > > > > > > God's will is for folks to be saved, our prayers for the lost > > brings this about. > > > > 2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men > > count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing > > that any > > > should perish, but that all should come to repentance. > > > > Rom 10:1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel > > is, that they might be saved. > > > > > > > > > > > > Mike, > > Prayer is that we would cling and grow in our utter dependence > > upon God. every good and perfect gift comes from His hand. God > > wants us to > > > pray because through prayer we show God that we need Him. Also, > > prayer is not that we would get what we want - but rather what > > God wants us to have - we are, like Christ, to submit our will to > > His will. BTW Mike what theological viewpoint are you coming > > from on this? > > > > Peace, > > Steve > > > > Mike Cantrell wrote: > > > > I realize this I come from a different theological viewpoint on > > this matter. However, I see prayer having more significance that > > just to develop us more. If prayer does not claim God's attention > > and bring into the situation being prayed His power, then it > > would be of little value in the life of the believer from a human > > perspective. > > > > Mike Cantrell > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Derick Dickens <mailto:Derick@...> > > To: pastorsforum@... > > Sent: Wednesday, October 05, 2005 12:05 PM > > Subject: RE: [PastorsForum] Prayer of One or Many > > > > Mike, > > > > Again, the situation is not that they were persistent so to > > "Change God's Mind" but that God used the situation to develop > > them more. Yet, from a human perspective, it seems like > > persistence pays off or that following through was beneficial. > > This is good in encouraging us > > > to let the situation draw us closer to God. I don't think we > > would say God was limited in his knowledge of the future, which > > is the obvious flip side to this argument. Thus, we can say that > > God knew it > > > all along but used it to develop us. > > > > Derick > > > > > > > > > > > > Derick Dickens <http://www.thedickensfamily.org/> > > > > > > > > Pastor Wallers Baptist Church > > PO Box 95 > > <http://maps.yahoo.com/py/maps.py?Pyt=Tmap&addr=PO+Box+95&csz=Partlow+ > > VA > > +22534&country=us> > > Partlow VA 22534 > > derick@... > > www.thedickensfamily.org <http://www.thedickensfamily.org/> > > tel: > > mobile: 540-582-5703 > > 540-894-1772 > > > > > > > > <http://www.plaxo.com/signature> Signature powered by Plaxo > > <http://www.plaxo.com/signature> Want a signature like this? > > <https://www.plaxo.com/add_me?u=21475105341&v0=517300&k0=393677647> > Add > > me to your address book... > > > > > > > > -- > > > > To unsubscribe, send ANY message to: pastorsforum-unsubscribe@... > > > > > > > > "In essential things, unity; in non-essential things, liberty; > > and in all things, charity." > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > To unsubscribe, send ANY message to: pastorsforum-unsubscribe@... > > > > > > > > "In essential things, unity; in non-essential things, liberty; > > and in all things, charity." > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > To unsubscribe, send ANY message to: pastorsforum-unsubscribe@... > > > > > > > > "In essential things, unity; in non-essential things, liberty; > > and in all things, charity." > > > > > > > > -- > > > > To unsubscribe, send ANY message to: pastorsforum-unsubscribe@... > > > > > > > > "In essential things, unity; in non-essential things, liberty; > > and in all things, charity." > > > > > > > > -- > > To unsubscribe, send ANY message to: pastorsforum-unsubscribe@... > > > > "In essential things, unity; in non-essential things, liberty; and > > in all things, charity." > > -- > To unsubscribe, send ANY message to: > pastorsforum-unsubscribe@... > > "In essential things, unity; in non-essential things, liberty; and in > all things, charity." > > -- > To unsubscribe, send ANY message to: pastorsforum-unsubscribe@... > > "In essential things, unity; in non-essential things, liberty; and > in all things, charity."