john, first, the bible does not "expessly" forbid it :) second, who said anything abot "pagan symbold. as far as the body being a temple - cool - i agree - now, i think it is more a spiritual temple then a "physical" one - but let us say ot is a physical one - i work out, eat right, live a health life style, do not take anything into my body that will caus it harm - i am 6'2", 210 lbs - 48 inch chst. and a 34 inch wst. i do not have "don-lap" - and you? if the body is a temple - what is your work out experiences? or that of others in this group? keep in mind, i have gone to many sites of the pastors in this group - so, what shape is your temple? :) pax jok --- John Keeter <jmkeeter@...> wrote: > Just a question... > > If the body is Gods temple- how can marking or > cutting it- especially if it > is with pagan symbols-- be a good thing? > > Even if the Bible did not forbit it expressly- and > it DOES-- would htis > STILL not be a unwise and unhealthy thing to do??? > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "john okeefe" <jxpxus@...> > To: <pastorsforum@...> > Sent: Friday, January 30, 2004 1:05 PM > Subject: Re: [PastorsForum] so ya like tatoos? > > > > it does nothing for me :) if a person gets a tat > and > > wants it removed - that's cool - but this only > serves > > to my point, that it is cultural and not bibical > :) > > > > if this was the reason why you felt tats were > wrong - > > i would have no problem with that at all - but to > > claim that it is a bibical treaching is just not > the > > case - > > > > one of the things a "pomo/emerging" people have a > hard > > time with are "rules" for the sake of rules - if > you > > have a solid leg to stand on, cool - but if it is > a > > traditional thing, or a cultural thing then i do > not > > "have to follw" it :) > > > > pax > > jok > > > > > > --- Pastor Hughes <embc@...> wrote: > > > this is enough to convince me.....but there is > more > > > too......enjoy....it is wild stuff..... > > > > > > > > > One of the businesses booming (along with the > > > medical profession and pharmaceuticals thanks to > the > > > "hepatitis C-tattoo" alliance) as a consequence > of > > > the tattoo-craze is the dermatology industry. > > > According to the American Society of > Dermatological > > > surgery, over 50% of everyone receiving a tattoo > > > wants it removed. > > > > > > Tattoo removal via laser surgery is among the > > > fastest growing areas of the dermatology > industry. > > > > > > Depending on the size of the tattoo and colors > used, > > > the laser tattoo removal surgery can be very > painful > > > and very expensive. Tattoos performed by > commercial > > > tattoo parlors are much more difficult to remove > > > because the tattoo is deeper, the ink more > complex > > > and thicker. It normally takes between 10 and 15 > > > laser surgery sessions to remove the average > tattoo, > > > but 25-30 sessions are not uncommon, depending > on > > > the complexity of the tattoo. When you consider > the > > > average single session costs between $400 - > $800, > > > the removal surgery can be very expensive, > costing > > > as much as $20,000. That $25 tattoo might cost > $5000 > > > to remove. And may I remind you, health > insurance > > > does not cover tattoo removals - this is > strictly > > > out of the pocket expenses. And yet despite this > > > enormous personal cost, most people are so > disgusted > > > with their tattoo they'll literally pay any cost > to > > > have it removed. > > > > > > Plastic Surgeon Tolbert S. Wilkinson, of San > > > Antonio, Texas, who has removed tattoos warns: > > > "If people only realized how difficult it is > to > > > remove a tattoo, understood how costly and how > > > painful tattoo removal is, and recognized that > > > society as a whole still views tattoos as a > stigma, > > > maybe they would think seriously before getting > one. > > > Laser removal costs a minimum of $7,000.00 > > > (national average) per tattoo, and takes at > least 10 > > > to 15 treatments, spread out over two or more > years. > > > Even with this treatment, the tattoo is still > > > visible." http://www.heloise.com/tattoo.html > > > Tattoo author Laura Reybold, writes that ". . > .an > > > ever rising number of people are so unhappy with > > > their tattoos that they are willing to pay > anything > > > to have them removed." > > > > > > "Yet an ever rising number of people are so > > > unhappy with their tattoos that they are willing > to > > > pay anything to have them removed. Tattoo > removal > > > laser surgery is becoming big business for the > > > dermatologists who perform it." > > > (Laura Reybold, Everything you need to know > about > > > the dangers of tattooing and body piercing, p. > 30) > > > > > > Ronald Scutt, says in Art, Sex and Symbol that > even > > > among sailors in the Royal Naval, over 50% > regretted > > > ever getting a tattoo. And among the married it > rose > > > to over 70% > > > > > > "From the statistics of the Royal Naval > survey, > > > the most significant factor to emerge was almost > > > certainly the incidence of regrets. Out of the > whole > > > sample, more than half admitted that they wished > > > they had never been tattooed. In the married > group, > > > the figure rose to around 70 per cent." > > > (Ronald Scutt, Art, Sex and Symbol, 1974, p. > 179) > > > > > > One article claims that as many as 80 percent > of > > > people with tattoos regret their tattoo. > > > > > > (www.spacecom.af.mil/hqafspc/News/News_Asp/nws_tmp.asp?storyid=02-93) > > > We receieved the following email shortly > after > > > we published this article on the web. > > > (Used with permission). > > > I've just completed reading your > article > > > on tattooing and the truth of it all deeply > troubled > > > me. I am a Christian, and like most I've > > > back-slidden several times throughout my life. > > > During one of these times, I recieved two > tattoos. > > > > > > One is a "tribal" band on my left arm, > > > though it doesn't fully circle the whole > upper-arm. > > > The other is on my right shoulder, the letters > "MSC" > > > in cursive writing signifying the names of my > best > > > friend, his wife, and their little daughter. > Even > > > though I love my friend and his family, I deeply > > > regret getting their initials tattooed onto my > body. > > > Moreover, I seriously and gravely regret with > all my > > > heart getting my other tattoo (the tribal band > on my > > > left arm). > > > > > > Being a few years older now (29 and > > > married) there is not a day that goes by that I > > > don't regret getting these tattoos. When I > dress, > > > I'm forced to see them in the mirror. When I > shower > > > I'm forced to see them. > > > > > > What makes matters worse, is that I > knew > > > all along that it is was wrong. I justified it > with > > > a back-slidden mind by thinking such things as > "God > > > only considers the heart and mind", "physical > sins > > > don't compare to spiritual sins", and so on, and > so > > > on. With my depraved and back-slidden mind, I > > > justified an abomination to God Himself, who > > > instructs us through His divine law not to print > any > > > marks on our bodies (Leviticus 19:28). If this > is > > > the law that will be used to rightly judge the > > > world, how much more should we as Christians > observe > > > and uphold it? > > > > > > The woman doing my first tattoo (the > > > tribal band) had to stop several times for > > > mysterious reasons. She was visibly shaken and > could > > > not concentrate. She kept saying, "man, I need a > > > break." Though It wasn't for my sake, I hid the > pain > > > very well and tuned it out for the most > part--but > > > this woman could not wait to get me out of that > > > chair. She claimed that she drank quite a bit > the > > > night before (I was getting the tattoo on a > saturday > > > afternoon), and this seemed to be the most > logical > > > reason that she was having such a tough time. I > > > can't help but wonder, however, if there was > more to > > > it. Even then my diminished discernment was > working, > > > and I sensed a spiritual conflict taking place. > When > > > the woman had finished, she made a disturbing > remark > > > that will foever echo in mind, "there ya go, > you're > > > no longer a virgin." Of course, she spoke not of > > > physical sexuality, but of spiritual defilement > > > against God in the form of marking my flesh. Now > I > > > was "one of the gang", one of the "cool people", > and > > > one of the rebels who shakes their fist at the > law > > > of God. > > > > > > I'm still troubled, even knowing that > I'm > > > forgiven. My only hope is for the glorification > of > > > the body, when the Lord shall raise us > > > uncorruptable. My tattoos stand as constant > > > reminders of my past depravity when I forsook > truly > > > walking with God, and only rendered Him > lip-service. > > > They will continue to be my marks of shame for > the > > > rest of the time appointed. Thank you for your > > > article. Hopefully this message will get out and > all > > > the right people will hear it, and save them > from > > > the fate of my shame and regret. It would bring > > > great solace to know that another person would > read > > > your article and avert my mistakes--which I > would > > > take back in a second if only I had the chance. > > > Through my own research, I've drawn all the same > > > conclusions you have concerning tattooing, body > > > modification, and other self-destructive > practices. > > > > > > May the Lord bless you and grant you peace > and > > > understanding, > > > > > > > > > Before you let that ink "mark" you for life > you'd > > > better think very careful about the possible > health, > > > spiritual and social consequences. Most people > later > > > regret, and even hate, their tattoo. The cost of > > > getting a tattoo can be very high among social > and > > > health risks. > > > > > > "Emotional risks include negative feelings you > > > might have as a result of getting a tattoo or > > > piercing. Social risks are those that could > damage > > > your relationship with others, including > friends, > > > parents, teachers, and employers. . . For > example, > > > body modification can affect your chances for > future > > > employment. Certain jobs are not available to > people > > > who have visible body art." > > > (Bonnie B. Graves, Tattooing and body > piercing, p. > > > 43) > > > > > > "The fact that so many people change their > minds > > > should lead you to think carefully about whether > you > > > want to lock yourself into a fashion statement > that > > > might cause you a lot of aggravation and > heartache > > > later in life." > > > (Laura Reybold, Everything you need to know > about > > > the dangers of tattooing and body piercing, p. > 32) > > > > > > "What so few realize, tragically, is that such > a > > > mark [tattoo] becomes the albatross around the > neck > > > for all time." > > > (Ronald Scutt, Art, Sex and Symbol, 1974, p. > 181) > > > > > > 21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is > good. > > > 22 Abstain from all appearance of evil. > > > 23 And the very God of peace sanctify you > wholly; > > > and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and > body > > > be preserved blameless unto the coming of our > Lord > > > Jesus Christ. > > > 1 Thessalonians 5:21-23 > > > > > > Pastor Hughes > > > East Mesa Baptist Church > > > http://www.azboss.net/~embc/ > > > > > > > > > ===== > > john o'keefe > > http://www.ginkworld.net > > > > __________________________________ > > Do you Yahoo!? > > Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free web site building tool. > Try it! > > http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ps/sb/ > > > > -- > > To unsubscribe, send ANY message to: > pastorsforum-unsubscribe@... > > > > "In essential things, unity; in non-essential > things, liberty; and in all > things, charity." > > > > > -- > To unsubscribe, send ANY message to: > pastorsforum-unsubscribe@... > > "In essential things, unity; in non-essential > things, liberty; and in all things, charity." > ===== john o'keefe http://www.ginkworld.net __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free web site building tool. Try it! http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ps/sb/