jim,

i would agree with what the author has to say - even
though i found the last line insulting and
self-serving :)

that last line cased a "red flag" to go off in my mind
- in connection with this section:

"lose the ability to �
Take advice
Be proved wrong
Be rebuked or corrected.
Now that�s what I call spooky."

i ahve to ask - who corrects who?  who rebukes who? 
who is right? - and the "canned, standard" answer that
"the bibile is right" will not cut it :)  and only
because i have to say that we each feel we are
supported by scriptures :)  so who is right - and,
given that reality can there be a "both/and" like we
believe in the pomo/emerging conversation?

pax
jok


--- jim <jim.melissa@...> wrote:
> Loved this article in light of all the varying
> viewpoints we find on pastor's forum... It's long,
> but in mho it's WELL WORTH the read.  What a great
> attitude for Pastor's Forum this would be (or is)
> 
>  You can find it on
> http://www.benwindle.com/whatscares.htm
> 
> A Frightening Thought!
> Do you know what scares me? I mean, really scares
> me?
> Not a boy on a broomstick, a Nimbus 2000
> Nor the black doom of Lord Sauron's ring
> Not disease, famine or war - not that they don't
> frighten me.
> Not the world
> Nor the devil
> Not post-modernism
> Nor any 'ism'
> No, nothing like these.
> What really scares me
> is that, regardless of my -
> Age
> Wisdom
> Success
> Connections
> Intelligence
> Revelation
> Failures, disappointments or griefs,
> I lose the ability to -
> Take advice
> Be proved wrong
> Be rebuked or corrected.
> Now that's what I call spooky.
> 
> We are never too anything to be exempt from advice
> or correction. You see we don't
> really know ourselves so well as to be able to self
> correct like a plane does on autopilot;
> aeroplanes are predictable, people aren't.
> 
>  We live with some self-knowledge but neverenough,
> and part of that self-knowledge is the understanding
> we don't really and completely know ourselves. (C K
> Chesterton stated, "The men who really believe in
> themselves are all in lunatic asylums".). This is
> why we live most successfully in a
> community, the church. There are things about each
> of us only seen by others. Jeremiah
> alluded to this when he stated something along the
> lines of, "A man's way is not within
> him". We don't have a complete and transparent view
> of ourselves. The view is
> obscured by murky perceptions. This keeps us in need
> of each other. I know this is a
> terrible blow to our desire for autonomy and
> disconnected independence but it is the way
> we are wired, and the more so since we became
> members of the body of Christ.
> What of Age
> Isn't there an age when we've arrived? Surely old
> enough is old enough. We never
> arrive; this life is a journey, arrival is in the
> next, if indeed arrival is even on the eternal
> agenda. Moses was still taking advice when he was
> over 80 years old. His meekness is
> partially seen in his ability to listen, and take on
> board the wisdom of someone even older
> than he, someone not even a member of the community
> of God's people. I'm over forty
> so I probably need twice as much advice as Moses - I
> certainly seem to get it. But in fact
> age is not a guarantee of anything; it is not an
> impregnable defence against folly,
> carelessness, bad choices and poor behaviour. We're
> never too old.
> What of Wisdom
> 3
> Don't we get to an accumulative point of wisdom
> where we know enough to be able to
> make all the right choices and decisions with
> reference to none but our store of wisdom?
> This certainly sounds appealing. But one of the
> hallmarks of a wise person is that they
> don't believe they are wise. You'd have thought that
> wisdom was knowing you are wise,
> but quite the opposite defines wisdom. Solomon
> stated, "Don't be impressed with your
> own wisdom. Instead fear the Lord .". He observed,
> "But the wise, when rebuked, will
> love you all the more." I'd have thought that the
> wise don't need to be rebuked but
> apparently they do; yet they are still called wise.
> So wisdom by definition isn't knowing
> everything and being beyond the capacity to learn.
> Wisdom in fact is the ability to
> continue to learn, and not to act in such a manner
> or think we know everything. "The
> wise are glad to be instructed". And, "Fools think
> they need no advice, but the wise
> listen to others". If a king could write these
> things of himself it remains likely we are in
> need of the same. We're never too wise.
> What of Success
> Success speaks for itself doesn't it? Success is the
> answer. No. Success is more
> dangerous than failure. At least failure alerts us
> to our weaknesses whereas success has a
> way of blindsiding us to the traffic not seen in the
> mirrors. Success has been as much the
> cause of failure in the Christian world (in any
> world for that matter) as a lack of
> achievement has because it tends to elevate us
> beyond a sober judgement of our abilities
> and gifts. Force fame on young people and go a long
> way to destroying them - but the
> same can be said for any age group where success
> intoxicates. Success can make a
> person think they are someone they're not. They have
> forgotten who made their success
> for them.
> It is far better to be successful than to fail. But
> if success makes us believe what is
> written about us we are likely to lose the ability
> to listen to others. Pride is an insidious
> and odorous thing. It blocks our ears from hearing
> and our hearts from learning. We're
> never too successful to learn. We're never so
> successful as to be beyond change.
> 4
> What of Connections
> Good connections make us look good, and they set us
> up don't they? Good connections
> are vital for our growth, expansion and success and
> there are few that stayed inside a
> small and predictable world that have grown. But
> whilst networking is vital we still all
> need to belong to a family as you can't belong to a
> network. Networks are about ideas
> and friends but families are about love,
> accountability and longevity.
> These nebulous accountability relations/networks are
> the catch cry of some Christian
> leaders. But connections can't and won't challenge
> us, because they are not
> relationships. They remain at the convenient
> distance of acquaintance. Convenient,
> because everyone needs to be related and submitted
> to someone so they display these
> 'connections' to show they're doing it correctly,
> and distant because if they were too
> close they might be seen for who they actually are -
> and that would be a disaster
> wouldn't it? It is the person who knows you, not
> just your successes, that is the most
> likely to really connect.
> What of Intelligence
> This will surely get me 'autonomously' by. But
> intelligence is often knowledge without
> wisdom, and we've already seen what wisdom says of
> itself. And, as can be the case, a
> very intelligent person is often one lacking in the
> skill of practical application. In fact
> God has said that he catches the intelligent in
> their own intelligence so this is hardly a
> good defence against advice and the offer of help.
> Proverbs 18:15 NLT "Intelligent
> people are always open to new ideas. In fact they
> look for them." So intelligence is
> humility by this definition. Intelligence is a fine
> quality and we are all the recipients of
> the work of those more intelligent than us, but it
> can't of its own volition exempt us from
> the need of others, correction and advice. No, we'll
> have to pass this one by in the quest
> for personal perfection.
> What of Revelation/s
> 5
> It appears that revelation/s from God may be one of
> the best defences against the need to
> heed advice or receive correction. Alas - not so.
> Peter who received the clearest
> revelation about the person of Jesus was the same
> man who was the most sharply rebuked
> by him. Peter was told he was listening to a devil
> because he was seeing things through
> human eyes, even though he was sincerity personified
> as he questioned Jesus' apparently
> morbid melancholy about needing to die.
> Revelation is not an endorsement of your character,
> personality and thought processes. It
> is a revelation - a gift from gracious God. It may
> be that the person who 'sees' the most
> is most in danger of deception; if any lesson can be
> drawn from the experience of Peter it
> is this. Even Moses, the man who saw God, and
> survived, the man who mediated the
> law, the man of whom it was said to have been the
> meekest man to have lived, received
> correction and assistance in the face of his own
> blindness. No one, even those who
> inhabit the loftiest of revelatory realms are beyond
> the need for external, human
> guidance. In fact these people may be in most need
> of others due to the deceptive
> capacity of their humanity, and its tendency to see
> revelation as an excuse for bad
> behaviour. Revelation isn't an endorsement of your
> humanity.
> What of Failures, Disappointments and Grief's
> Now you'd think that these would naturally set us up
> for listening to advice and wisdom
> from others. But they can have quite the opposite
> effect on us. This is due to our state of
> mind after these events; we can feel as if the last
> thing we wish for is the advice of others,
> even if it is the best thing for us. Who wants to
> swallow unpleasant medicine, no matter
> the claims on the bottle or the inducements of those
> holding the spoon? (Not for me).
> Sometimes we are too embarrassed to ask for advice
> when we have failed, and if it is
> offered it isn't appreciated. Grief has an ability
> to lock us away from others and the help
> they may have. We can become so overwhelmed by a
> grief or disappointment that may
> have been self-induced in the first place that our
> ears stop up. Statistics shows that 75%
> of all plane crashes are due to pilot error, and in
> the same way many of our mistakes and
> backward steps in life are due our choices and
> actions and not the inevitability of external
> factors. What an opportunity to get it right so as
> not to fail that way again - but only if
> we have the humility to listen and take on the chin
> what may be the answer gloved in
> rebuke or correction.
> And Finally
> Don't ever be too anything to stop the flow of God's
> wisdom and care for your lives by
> the input of significant others; others who know,
> love and appreciate us but who aren't
> likely to have the wool pulled over their eyes by
> our protestations and poor attempts at
> vindicating failure and poor choices. God in his
> infinite wisdom and intimate knowledge
> of our humanity has provided a wonderful antidote
> for blind independence, failure and
> arrogance. It is each other.
> Recently I was having a meal with two other C3i
> pastors and we were pondering about
> how do we keep ourselves from failure and disgrace.
> In a rare moment of lucidity I said,
> 'This is how we do it, we're doing it right now - we
> sit, we talk, we open our thoughts
> and even our secrets to each other, we laugh, we
> cry, we cling on to our relationships and
> friendships". Isolation is a danger to be avoided as
> studiously as the plague. It sends
> good people slightly crazy.
> I'm not so scared now that I have got this off my
> chest but please don't cause palpitations
> by disagreeing with what I've written - it would
> only go to prove the point, aside from
> leaving me gasping for air.
> Simon McIntyre
> Feb 2002.


=====
john o'keefe
http://www.ginkworld.net

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