John, I hope I am not fully understanding you correctly. To not hold a belief in absolute truth opens the doors for accepting as valid ANY thought. Please understand that the belief in absolute truth does not mean that I or anyone else claims to have the full understanding or knowledge of thet truth, only that it DOES exist. The pursuit of that understanding is one way that we grow and move closer to the likeness of Christ (Sanctification). It is a process that will not come to full completion in this life. But that does not remove the idea that this absolute truth exists, nor does it remove the idea that absolute truth is revealed in the Bible. If I told a blind man that something is the color red, and he has never seen the color red, he can not grasp or fully understand that the color r5ed exists. His lack of comprehension does not negate the fact that red is a color and that it does exist. (Don't get goofy here and start trying to debate the existence of the color red based on perceptions of various light wave forms, etc. This is just an illustration) The problem with not accepting absolute truth, is that it follows: If there is no absolute truth, then maybe ________ (fill in the blank with your own personal pet issue, homosexuality, abortion, murder, adultery, bigamy, gluttony, etc.) is alright. Relativism is a humanistic term and leads to situational ethics and all forms of unrighteousness. It further leads to extreme ecumenism that accepts the beliefs of other belief systems as being equally valid. Ie; Fuller Cemeteries recent stance on Muslims, or perhaps even Mormons are bound for glory in the afterlife, or maybe even universal salvation. To deny the very existence of absolute truth is to deny the Jesus is the Son of God, and to deny His words "I am the way, the truth, and the life, NO ONE COMES TO THE FATHER, but THROUGH ME". Again, I HOPE that we are simply talking semantics, and that I simply did not understand you correctly. Don Procunier -----Original Message----- From: john okeefe [mailto:jxpxus@...] Sent: Thursday, February 05, 2004 12:34 PM To: pastorsforum@... Subject: Re: [PastorsForum] New Topics ok - it is time for me to come out of the closet :) and open myself for attack :) i do not believe, as most postmodern/emerging people, in "absolute truth" - in the reality that no one can even know an absolute :) no one can say that they know that God is 100% real - if that were the case we would not need faith :) remember, "faith is believeing in things not seen..." and i have 100% faith in God - now, that is n ot to say that God is not truth - it is only to say that no human can say that they know the "absolute truth" of God :) i believe all truth is subjective - and can not be objective - truth is seen in the community we belong too. for example - i believe that jesus is the christ, God in flesh - my truth says that a divorced man can serve as pastor, and that we are not saved by works (they are a fruit of our savlation), and that baptism is not required for salvation - others, in other communities, may not see those as "truth" - and for us, that is cool :) because we see things in a subjective point of view. that is one reason why the postmodern/emerging converstation is seen as "liberial" in theology - because we allow others to differ with us, and those with a more "fundy" point of view see that as "liberial" - but i have several friends in rather "fundy" churches and all is good with us :) when we say, "jesus is truth" are we saying "jesus is truth, the way i see it" or are we saying, "jesus is truth, and it can only be the way i see it"? i have no problem with saying "jesus is truth" - but must that "truth" be in line with the way you see jesus? pax jok ps - the can of worms has two ends :) > -------Original Message------- > > From: pastorsforum@... > Date: 02/05/04 07:40:54 > To: pastorsforum@... > Subject: Re: [PastorsForum] New Topics > > Im back.......hello....did ya miss me? > > absolute truth......ok lets go...... > > You ask what is truth....??? > well that is certainly not a new question.... > another asked that many moons ago too.... > > John 18:38 Pilate saith unto him, What is truth? > > ......and just think ....the poor dude was starin it > in the face.....whoa... > > Joh 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is > come, he will guide you > into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; > but whatsoever he shall > hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you > things to come. > Joh 17:17 6 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy > word is truth. > Joh 17:19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, > that they also might be > sanctified through the truth. > > > I know you didnt want anyone to tell you 'God is > truth" > but....consider the following in light of the > above.... > > Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt > among us, > > > soooooo.....based on the above scripture I will tell > you what I think.... > > the Spirit is Truth > the Word is Truth > and Jesus is Truth.... > > > this is the whole truth... > nothin but the truth.. > so help me ....God is truth... > > yahoooooooo > this is fun stuff... > pastor h. > > > > Pastor Hughes > East Mesa Baptist Church > http://www.azboss.net/~embc/ > ----- Original Message ----- > From: john okeefe <jxpxus@...> > To: <pastorsforum@...> > Sent: Wednesday, February 04, 2004 5:02 PM > Subject: Re: [PastorsForum] New Topics > > > > david - > > > > well, i for one would love to get back to the > topic of > > "absolute truth" - i still have not gotten a > > defination of what it means to each person - and > > please, give an answer not a "God is aboslute > truth" - > > i want to know what you think, and not the > "corporate > > line" :) i ask because several people have > wondered > > what i think - and i am very willing to discuss > this - > > given that fact that i am 99.99888% sure (as i > like to > > say, "ivery certianity) that we will differ on the > > subject :) > > > > pax > > jok > > > > > > --- DAVID POWELL <dpowellaz@...> wrote: > > > I think we have just about beat all these dead > > > horses as much as they are going to take! Do > any of > > > you have any new blood for us? I have assured > > > several here on PF that I will let the topics go > on > > > as long as they want to talk about them. That > still > > > goes but things are getting repetitive. I am > not > > > cutting anything off, I am just encouraging all > to > > > find some other topic that we can set the world > > > straight on!! > > > > > > I hope everyone is enjoying this even if > everybody > > > is all wrong except me and Iggy! > > > > > > Dr. David Powell (part-time moderator) > > > Shalom Alechem...Barukh Hashem Y'shua! > > > (Peace and Blessings in Jesus' name!) > > > > > > ===== > > john o'keefe > > http://www.ginkworld.net > > > > __________________________________ > > Do you Yahoo!? > > Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free web site building tool. > Try it! > > http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ps/sb/ > > > > -- > > To unsubscribe, send ANY message to: > pastorsforum-unsubscribe@... > > > > "In essential things, unity; in non-essential > things, liberty; and in all > things, charity." > > > -- > To unsubscribe, send ANY message to: > pastorsforum-unsubscribe@... > > "In essential things, unity; in non-essential > things, liberty; and in all > things, charity." > > ===== john o'keefe http://www.ginkworld.net __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online. http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html -- To unsubscribe, send ANY message to: pastorsforum-unsubscribe@... "In essential things, unity; in non-essential things, liberty; and in all things, charity."