Steve,
As I read through your post I kept thinking, "now here is an honest post."
You spoke of what you saw as he positive and the negative and yet remained
uncommitted about what you had not seen for yourself. Good job brother!
Thanks for posting. I never knew all this. I've been informed.
D Warner
-----Original Message-----
From: Steven G. Rockhill [mailto:revrock@...]
Sent: Saturday, February 10, 2007 2:18 PM
To: pastorsforum@...
Subject: Re: [PastorsForum] Legalism
I have to agree with both Bill and Mr. Cloud on this .... how's that
again. Yes, they both are right. I have not read RW's PDC or PDL - they
are on a long list of books to read though. But I have read enough
snippets here and there to know that Bill is right when he says that the
PDC is about vision. Many different churches from many different
traditions have used and implemented the 5 purposes - it is not just for
contemporary worshippers (though often that is how many of the churches
do end up going - but certainly not all).
But on the other hand I believe Mr. Cloud is right when he points out
the unbiblical secrecy and stealth methods that are not only condoned
but encouraged in moving a church to PDC. Before coming to PF I used to
spend a lot of time on RW's website pastors.com - in fact it was on
there that I found out about PF when Brian LaCroix posted about a new
forum he was starting. I am not saying that RW ever said anything or
wrote anything that actually condoned and encouraged these methods ( he
may have but I have not seen it in his own words) but certainly those
who moderate the forums of his pastors forum on his website condone and
encourage such tactics. These methods are also advocated by the author
of the PDC complementary book "Transitions" who frequently posted on the
forum. I could not believe the deception and trickery that was
encouraged to bring about this change. Of course some of the moderators
were just down right mean and nasty people (imho). If someone posted a
question or comment that was even slightly critical - they would be
threatened with expulsion - even if they tried to seek some
clarification they would be just booted and then the moderators and
others would talk about them (post about them) and criticize and make
fun of them when they could no longer defend themselves. Zero love and
compassion.
And the sad thing was that this was not only the way they acted on the
forum but also in their pulpits and churches. "old guard" and
"traditionalists" were seen as obstacles to be rid of, not live souls in
need of care and love. Now granted - traditionalism - if it truly is
traditionalism is a great evil in the church today - the "we've never
done it this way before" mentality is wrong. However, if you seek to
make a momentous change you have to start with individuals - preaching
and teaching the truth in love - not this "your either with us or
against us" mentality that was so common in these PDC advocates. Yes
there will always be people who get upset about this or that but the
pastor and elders should reach out to them in every possible way to
encourage them - not stomp all over them and belittle them behind their
backs - they are real people not objects to be cast aside. And of course
this is all amplified when the leaders or "core group" are secretly
planning a major overhaul. If it is truly Biblical than it should be
done out in the open - not deceptively trying to win others to your side
or plotting to rid the church of opposition. This is not the Church -
this is politics or business. After seeing this time and time again I
was glad to find an alternate forum for fellowship. Many of those on the
P.com forum (the moderators especially) I have no respect for as
ministers of the gospel or even as men. As someone near and dear to us
might say, "SHAME on them". It truly was awful.
So the 5 Purpose PDC vision (which may or may not have some merit - I
won't know until I actually read it) should be separated from the way
that many (even the PDC pastors forums) encourage and condone that
vision being implemented. So there I agree with Bill Burns and David Cloud.
Pax,
Steve
Bill burns wrote:
> *Well, I've been through the purpose drive coarse and in fact taught a
> couple "days" and have read and re-read the book. No where does Warren
> tell a church or person what they should do! How too, but not what too.*
> **
> *In fact, he talks about individual/churches having uniquiness(sp) and
> that they can serve God in their own particular way. It's called vision.*
> * *
> *
> *
> *Bill
> /David Warner <dwarner@...>/* wrote:
>
> Who told you that??
> D Warner
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *From:* Bill burns [mailto:burnswh@...]
> *Sent:* Saturday, February 10, 2007 12:58 AM
> *To:* pastorsforum@...
> *Subject:* RE: [PastorsForum] Legalism
> The Purpose Driven church or purpose driven life have nothing to
> do with what a church or individual does or doesn't do. Has
> nothing to do with how a church should conduct their services. Has
> nothing to do with denominations or Pharisees.
> **But, it does have a lot to do with vision, mission and purpose
> thereof.**
> Bill
>
> */David Warner <dwarner@...>/* wrote:
>
> WERE ALL OUR CHRISTIAN FOREFATHERS PHARISEES? (Friday Church
> News Notes, February 9, 2007, www.wayoflife.org
> <http://us.f385.mail.yahoo.com/ym/www.wayoflife.org>
> fbns@... <mailto:fbns@...>, 866-295-4143)
> - The New York Times for January 28 ran an article entitled
> "The First Dance," about the first dance allowed in the
> history of John Brown University last December. For nearly 90
> years this Christian school, located in Siloam Springs,
> Arkansas, considered dancing a worldly activity and forbade
> it. In the Rick Warren age, though, such taboos are
> old-fashioned, legalistic, even Pharisaical. John Brown
> University was founded in 1919 by a Salvation Army preacher.
> The same thing has happened in recent years at many other
> Christian schools, including Wheaton College, BIOLA,
> Cornerstone University, and Baylor University. When we preach
> against these things today and say that modern dancing is
> worldly we are condemned as legalists and Pharisees. It makes
> me wonder. Were all of our evangelical and fundamentalist
> Christian forefathers Pharisees?
> Fifty years ago the vast majority of them believed the same
> thing on these issues as we believe today. As the New York
> Times observed, "Until last October, dancing had been seen at
> J.B.U. as a gateway to sin." Since it is obvious that modern
> dancing has not gotten godlier in the past 90 years, something
> else must have changed and that something else is the gross
> worldliness of evangelicalism today. To label a
> Bible-believing Christian who has zeal to obey God's Word a
> Pharisee is a slander, because the error of Phariseeism was
> not their zeal to obey the Scripture. They had no such zeal.
> Their central errors were self-righteousness, hypocrisy,
> exalting tradition above Scripture, a gospel of works, and the
> rejection of Jesus Christ.
> ONE SOUTHERN BAPTIST CHURCH REFUSES TO GO PURPOSE DRIVEN
> (Friday Church News Notes, February 9, 2007, www.wayoflife.org
> <http://us.f385.mail.yahoo.com/ym/www.wayoflife.org>
> fbns@..., 866-295-4143) - The First Baptist Church
> of Daytona Beach, Florida, was being led in Rick Warren's
> Purpose Driven direction by its new pastor David Cox, when
> many of the members stood against the changes and forced Cox
> to resign on January 29. Among other changes, Cox had
> eliminated the bus ministry, built a new rock concert-type
> stage in the auditorium at the cost of $450,000, and
> introduced a rock band for Sunday services. He was teaching
> from Warren's book The Purpose Driven Life. One of the things
> that were effective in the demise of Cox's Purpose Driven goal
> was a document that was distributed among church members
> explaining what was transpiring and where it would lead.
> Though Cox labeled the document "propaganda" and warned that
> the people were being "duped," enough members stood their
> ground that he was forced to resign. Cox had become the senior
> pastor when Bobby Welch retired in August 2006 after 32 years
> at First Baptist. The document that helped force Cox's
> resignation is reprinted in this issue of the Friday Church
> News Notes. Let me hasten to say that the members of First
> Baptist who resisted Cox doubtless had other motives in
> addition to simply stemming the tide of the Purpose Driven
> philosophy. It appears from its web site that this large
> Southern Baptist church uses Contemporary Worship Music in the
> services and rock music in its youth department, so we are not
> saying that there is a consistent rejection of the
> contemporary philosophy in this congregation.
> THE PURPOSE DRIVEN PLAYBOOK FOR CHURCH TAKE OVERS (Friday
> Church News Notes, February 9, 2007, www.wayoflife.org
> <http://us.f385.mail.yahoo.com/ym/www.wayoflife.org>
> fbns@... <mailto:fbns@...>, 866-295-4143)
> - The following is excerpted from the blog "Full Court Press
> Against Modernism" and is entitled "Megachurch Pastor Accuses
> Some Congregation Members of Being Duped," January 29, 2007.
> It was prepared with the assistance of research by the
> Southwest Radio Church of Bethany, Oklahoma: "In the past ten
> years a lot of churches in America and in other countries have
> changed from a traditional New Testament church model to a
> contemporary Purpose Driven model, most with sorrowful pitiful
> results. Thousands of churches have split, closed, or had
> significant reductions in attendance. Most churches, after
> having a brief upsurge in growth, either reverted back to
> their original size or suffered church trauma by introducing
> the PDC model in their congregation. It is important that
> EVERY church member know if their church is targeted for a
> PURPOSE DRIVEN CHURCH (PDC) takeover. Initially a small clique
> of church staff including the pastor plans the change without
> telling the rest of the church membership. Church Transitions
> (a PDC training arm) trains the clique initiating the change
> in eight steps. The church is not to be informed of the
> transitions until the fourth step. After the sixth step if
> there are some members in the church who voice concerns the
> following is suggested: #1- Identify those who are resisting
> the changes. #2- Assess the effectiveness of their opposition.
> #3- Befriend those who are undecided about changes. #4-
> Marginalize more persistent resisters or questioners. #5-
> Vilify those who stay and fight. #6- Establish new rules that
> will silence all resistance. Then the members either accept
> the changes or leave the church. Rick Warren, author and
> director of the PDC movement, says, 'When you reveal the
> vision to the church the old pillars are going to leave.
> But let them leave ... they only hold things up.' So what are
> the signs that your church is targeted for a PDC change? #1-
> Change in music to a contemporary rock style. #2- Removal of
> hymn books...often words on a screen. #3- Eliminating the
> choir or introducing a choral 'entertainment type' singing
> group. Repetitive praise lyrics are used. #4- Replacing the
> organ/piano with rock music type instruments.
> #5- Dressing down to casual informal attire. #8- A repetitive
> 40 day PDC study program stressing psychological relationships
> with each other, the community and the world. #10- Sunday
> morning, evening, and/or Wednesday prayer meetings are changed
> to other times, named differently or eliminated. #14- New
> versions of the Bible are used.
> #16- The decor may be changed to eliminate any resemblance to
> the 'former church.' #17- The name 'church' is often removed
> and may be called a 'campus.' Denominational names are often
> removed. #18- An emphasis on more fun and party times for the
> youth. #19- Elimination of altar calls or salvation
> invitations. #20- The elimination of such words as 'unsaved,'
> 'lost,' 'hell, and 'sodomy.' #21- Reclassification of the
> saved and lost to the 'churched' and 'unchurched' #22- The
> marginalizing or ostracizing of all who are not avid promoters
> of the new PDC program."
> D Warner
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *From:* Dpowellaz2@... [mailto:Dpowellaz2@...]
> *Sent:* Friday, February 09, 2007 9:31 AM
> *To:* pastorsforum@...
> *Subject:* [PastorsForum] Legalism
> *Don't let legalism kill your joy in ministry*
> by Rick Warren
> /<HR/
>
>
--
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
++
Pastor Steven G. Rockhill
Lisbon Reformed Presbyterian Church
PO Box 88
Lisbon, NY 13658
315-393-9041
revrock@...
http://lisbonrpc.port5.com
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
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