The lost person is free to sin, and sin, and sin. He is in bondage to sin.
Even his righteousnesses are as filthy rags. His prayer is an abomination
to the Lord. However, that can be changed by the grace of God. He can be
redeemed, reconciled, justified, sanctified, and glorified in Christ. The
regenerate person can sin, but he doesn't have to sin. He has a choice
there that the lost person does not.
GARY WEBB
----- Original Message -----
From: "Derick Dickens" <Derick@...>
To: <pastorsforum@...>
Sent: Saturday, April 14, 2007 4:25 AM
Subject: Re: [PastorsForum] Is there free will to unchoose God?
> Jerry,
>
> I think you are making my point that if you reject God's total
> Sovereignty in salvation, then you cannot accept it for sanctification.
> In other words, to hold to the idea that we have any less of a freedom
> after salvation than before is not found in the Bible. I find, though,
> the opposite, we have a greater freedom after salvation. Yet, we define
> free will differently, but I do not see how one can have less free will
> after salvation but more.
>
> Derick
>
> Jerry Krewson wrote:
>> Gary,
>> Those are nice words, but not biblically accurate. If man had no
>> soverign will what went wrong in the garden. God told Adam and Eve,
>> "...you must not eat...." God is giving a direct command, but Adam and
>> Eve make a choice and eat. God gave them soverign choice.
>>
>> In Acts 2:37, the people asked Peter, "...what shall we do? Peter
>> replied, Repent...." Peter's reply has all the earmarks of choice. If
>> they didn't have a choice, Peter might have said something like: "You
>> don't have to do anything. God chose you, and that settles it." In
>> verse 40, Peter then tells them, "Save yourselves from this untoward
>> generation."
>>
>> I will stand on God's Words.
>> jerry k
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gary Webb" <mgwebb@...>
>> To: <pastorsforum@...>
>> Sent: Friday, April 13, 2007 8:31 PM
>> Subject: Re: [PastorsForum] Is there free will to unchoose God?
>>
>>
>>> Man has NO sovereign ability at all. There is but One Sovereign
>>> Being, the Lord God. Man's "free" will is always limited to the
>>> choices available to him. His choices are not infinite. In fact,
>>> his choices have been chosen for him by the One who is Sovereign.
>>> Even then, his choices are not free from consequences beyond his own
>>> control.
>>>
>>> Before regeneration, man is in bondage. Have you ever considered the
>>> fact that those in bondage are not free? Man's sinful nature
>>> disposes him toward sinful choices, though some parade themselves as
>>> righteousness.
>>>
>>> No one will arrive in heaven kicking and screaming because they have
>>> no desire to be there. Neither will anyone in hell be able to
>>> protest that they deserve better. God will not be surprised by any
>>> who will arrive in heaven, nor will He be perplexed that someone He
>>> expected is missing.
>>>
>>> The ways of God in salvation are truly mysterious and wonderful.
>>> Like a bridegroom courting the bride, He woos the souls of men to
>>> Himself. Unquestionably, He is worthy of the greatest love and
>>> devotion anyone could offer, but sinful men do not find holiness
>>> attractive. Until He grants them repentance unto life, they choose
>>> what pleases them most: sin. Afterwards, they choose Him as their
>>> righteousness, wisdom, and sanctification. Why do they make such a
>>> choice, because they once were blind, but now they see. You see,
>>> blind men have limited choices compared to those who see. Choices
>>> that a seeing person would find unthinkable might be the normal
>>> course for someone without sight.
>>>
>>> Those who come to faith in Christ (the only evidence of eternal
>>> life), are born again. This is a totally new spiritual condition.
>>> There is a radical change in their disposition toward God, toward
>>> sin, and toward righteousness. As partakers of His divine nature,
>>> they find delight in Him. Could they turn away? Could they cease to
>>> believe? Is this a hypothetical question about the powers of
>>> regenerate human nature, or about a more realistic issue of choice.
>>> God truly is sovereign. He is also both eternal and omnipotent.
>>> Being omnipotent, He would have the power to change His own nature,
>>> perhaps even His eternality, but that would be contrary to His nature
>>> because He is also immutable.
>>>
>>> As a believer in Jesus Christ, I now have a new nature. It is
>>> evidenced in many ways, but one of its characteristics is disposition
>>> to follow Him. "As many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the
>>> sons of God" (Romans 8:14). I now belong to Him, preeminently by His
>>> choice, but contingently by my own. I am my Beloveds, and He is
>>> mine. Is something about Him going to so change that I will be
>>> disappointed with Him? Are His rewards so trivial that I would cast
>>> them aside as worthless? I don't think so.
>>>
>>>
>>> GARY WEBB
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steven G. Rockhill"
>>> <revrock@...>
>>> To: <pastorsforum@...>
>>> Sent: Friday, April 13, 2007 12:17 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [PastorsForum] Is there free will to unchoose God?
>>>
>>>
>>>> If a person has the free will to choose salvation in Christ, then
>>>> _*they must*_ by virtue of the nature of their free will have the
>>>> ability to unchoose salvation in Christ. Does God take away their
>>>> free will once they become saved? Does God keep someone saved,
>>>> kicking and screaming against their will? I think not. If man has
>>>> the sovereign ability to choose Christ while he is a sinner, then he
>>>> must also retain that sovereign ability once he is saved and have
>>>> the sovereign ability to unchoose Christ. Certainly God's
>>>> sovereignty cannot overrule man's, can it?
>>>>
>>>> Peace,
>>>> Steve O:-)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Gary Webb wrote:
>>>>> Are you saying that someone who is truly born again, a partaker of
>>>>> the divine nature, a new creature, a saint rather than a sinner,
>>>>> would actually WILL to reject Christ? How unthinkable! I'll grant
>>>>> that some have a false assurance of salvation without actually
>>>>> having become new in Christ, but that's not what was asked.
>>>>> Someone who is genuinely saved has passed from death unto life,
>>>>> from darkness into the marvelous light of God's own Son.
>>>>>
>>>>>> From another perspective, does Christ unknow someone? Does He
>>>>>> know them
>>>>> (intimately as one of His own), then unknow them? Do those who are
>>>>> elect according to the foreknowledge of God become non-elect?
>>>>>
>>>>> Now, looking at a related issue, there are those who "for a while
>>>>> believe" (Luke 8:13). The parable leaves no indication that these
>>>>> are any more saved than those by the way side (Luke 8:12). A faith
>>>>> that doesn't endure under the various tests of faith should cause
>>>>> alarm. It is an indication of the need for regeneration, not just
>>>>> a minor incident to be overlooked.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> GARY WEBB
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steven G. Rockhill"
>>>>> <revrock@...>
>>>>> To: <pastorsforum@...>
>>>>> Sent: Friday, April 13, 2007 10:33 AM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [PastorsForum] Is there free will to unchoose God?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> They must, otherwise they would be held against their will!
>>>>>> Oh wait I wasn't supposed to respond was I .... oops sorry.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Peace,
>>>>>> Steve
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Derick Dickens wrote:
>>>>>>> I am curious on where our non-reformed brethren stand on this
>>>>>>> issue. Does a person have free will to unchoose Christ after
>>>>>>> choosing Christ? What say ye?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Derick
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> To subscribe, send a message to: pastorsforum-join@...
>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Pastor Steven G. Rockhill
>>>>>> Lisbon Reformed Presbyterian Church
>>>>>> PO Box 88
>>>>>> Lisbon, NY 13658
>>>>>> 315-393-9041
>>>>>> revrock@... http://lisbonrpc.port5.com
>>>>>> +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> To subscribe, send a message to: pastorsforum-join@...
>>>>>>
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>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
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>>>>>> Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 269.4.0/759 - Release Date:
>>>>>> 4/12/2007 7:58 PM
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>>>>
>>>> Pastor Steven G. Rockhill
>>>> Lisbon Reformed Presbyterian Church
>>>> PO Box 88
>>>> Lisbon, NY 13658
>>>> 315-393-9041
>>>> revrock@... http://lisbonrpc.port5.com
>>>> +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>>>>
>>>>
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>>>>
>>>
>>>
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>
>
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