Kevin,
First, I really appreciate your dialogue with me. You have a way of 
disagreeing, but in the most agreeable way.

The "like them" comes from the NIV version.

To my shame, I am very poor in English grammar and ignorant of Greek, but I 
will continue none the less, and where you show me my mistake I will learn 
from you. As I took a look at my Greek Interlinear Greek English New 
Testament, it seems to verify what you say about the "like them." But I 
shall plod on.

I still see "He who overcomes" in verse 5 as a separate group from those in 
verse 4 who have "not defiled their garments." Those in verse 4 have been 
given the 'assurance' that they "shall walk with me in white, because worthy 
they are." THEY HAVE OVERCOME.

However, "HE WHO OVERCOMES" are those who have not yet overcome and are/have 
being giving the WARNING in verse 2 and 3. Those Jesus warns in verse 2, 
surely are part of the Sardis church and saved, for Jesus does NOT declare 
them dead, but indicates that there is something in them that is alive and 
"about to die." They have deeds, but they are not complete. And verse 3 
makes it clear, they have received something. I believe that to be 
salvation. Jesus' tone and words do not indicate the need for salvation, but 
the need to awaken what is about to die, but not yet dead.

Ah, before you take me to verse 1 "dead," my vines says that word means 
'barren or inactive.'

Ok, let me ask you this. Are those described in verse 4 the same group of 
people described in verses 2 and 3?

Enough. I know you are a very busy man, and my ramblings take you away from 
more important things. But I do enjoy the dialogue with you. Thank you for 
your patience.
jerry k


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Kevin Sigafoos" <ksigafoos@...>
To: <pastorsforum@...>
Sent: Thursday, July 12, 2007 7:27 AM
Subject: Re: [PastorsForum] What is the ?Book of Life"?


> On 7/11/07, Jerry Krewson <pastorjerry@...> wrote:
>> Kevin,
>> The "like them" in verse 5, I agree, are those discribed in verse 4.
>>
>> But who do you think the "He" {NIV} is in verse 5?
>>
>> The "He" and the "like them" are two different groups, don't you agree?
>>
>
> No, I don't think that I agree.
>
> The "like them" (which translation does that come from, Jerry?) is, I
> think better translated "in the same way" (HCSB), "thus" (ESV) or "the
> same" (KJV).  I'm not a Greek expert, but I think that the "like them"
> and the "in the same way" comes from the word houtos, which means "in
> this way, thus, even so, in such a manner."  The third person plural
> far demonstrative "them" doesn't occur in the Greek (as far as I see).
> The only version that I found with "like them" was the NET which
> includes the note that the literal Greek is "thus."
>
> Regardless of whether the third person plural far demonstrative is
> present in the text or not, I don't think that there are two groups.
> Jesus is switching from the general to the specific but not switching
> subjects.  In verse 4, Jesus speaks of "people who have not spoiled
> their garments" in the plural.  In verse 5 he switches to "the one"
> who overcomes and not blotting out "his name" in the singular.  This
> is a shift from the general to the specific but not a change of
> subjects.
>
> Jesus does the same thing in Rev 3:19-20 switching from "those whom I
> love," plural, in verse 19 to the singular in verse 20, "I will come
> in to him."
>
> This, BTW, is one reason to avoid the so-called "Gender Neutral"
> translations.  These versions tend to obfuscate the subject of such
> passages by changing "him" to "them" in order to avoid supposed sexist
> language.  But, everyone knows that Jesus' use of the third person
> masculine singular in Rev 3:5 and 20 is not meant to exclude females.
> Substituting the third person plural for the singular confuses the
> subject of the verse and, most importantly, blurs the fact that we
> come to Christ as a single individual and not corporately.
>
>
> -- 
>
> Grace and peace,
> Kevin Sigafoos
> ---------------------
> For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be
> glory forever. Amen. (Rom 11:36)
>
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