But Gary - where there is death as a punishment there must have been a declaration of "guilty" by the righteous judge. So if we carry the penalty of Adam's sin then we must also - according to true justice - carry the guilt. Adam was our representative - a representative is one who acts in our stead. He sinned and was condemned - and because he represented us - we sinned (Rom. 5:12) and are condemned (as guilty). It works with Christ and righteousness in a similar way - we live through Christ because we have an alien righteousness (Christ's righteousness) applied to our account - the guilt is removed. Peace, Steve Gary Webb wrote: > Kevin, > > I don't want to go too far with this because I'd prefer for us to stay > closer to the texts being discussed. However, I believe there is a > great difference between being guilty of Adam's sin and being effected > by Adam's sin. Sin leads to death. Death is an effect. Because of > one man's sin, death passed upon all men. If my father had been > killed when he was five years old, the effect would be widespread. I > would never have been born, nor would my son. We would be "dead" in > the sense that we would not have been born the first time. When my > spiritual father, Adam, died, so did I. I > > > > GARY WEBB > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > *From:* Kevin Sigafoos <mailto:ksigafoos@...> > *To:* pastorsforum@... <mailto:pastorsforum@...> > *Sent:* Thursday, August 23, 2007 8:38 AM > *Subject:* Re: [PastorsForum] Re: Steve's verses, part 1 - Genesis > 2:17 > > > > On 8/23/07, *Jerry Lewis* <jlew0@... > <mailto:jlew0@...>> wrote: > > > Seriously, I do not think there is any question among us that > men are born spiritually dead. > > > I believe that Doc was questioning that in the thread which > precipitated this discussion. I have read others on this forum > imply that man is not born spiritually dead, just sick. > > > But that is different than saying that all men are guilty of > Adam's sin. > > > I have tried to prove that they are the same. I did so from the > text of Genesis 2 & 3, Romans 5, and 1 Corinthians 15. Where do > you find fault in my exegesis? > > Why is man is born spiritually dead if he is not guilty of > something? If he is guilty of something from before he is born, > then what could it be if not Adam's sin? > > BTW, "2mp" is short-hand for "second masculine plural." I'm > sorry if I was overly technical. > > > > -- > > Grace and peace, > Kevin Sigafoos > --------------------- > For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be > glory forever. Amen. (Rom 11:36) > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.484 / Virus Database: 269.12.2/966 - Release Date: > 8/22/2007 9:05 AM > > > To subscribe, send a message to: pastorsforum-join@... > > To unsubs > cribe, send a message to: pastorsforum-unsubscribe@... > > > > -- ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Pastor Steven G. Rockhill Lisbon Reformed Presbyterian Church PO Box 88 Lisbon, NY 13658 315-393-9041 revrock@... http://lisbonrpc.port5.com +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++