I think really, they both say the same sort of thing in different ways. Blessings, Randy > Which one if any are you closer to A or B ??? neither > > A. > > >> J. Arminius wrote - here is article # 3 of 5. > > > > - *Article III* That man has not saving grace of himself, nor of the > energy of his > free-will<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_will_in_theology>, > inasmuch as he, in the state of > apostasy<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy>and sin, can of and by > himself neither think, will, nor do anything that is > truly good (such as having faith eminently is); but that it is needful > that > he be born again <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Born_again> of God in > Christ, through his Holy Spirit, and renewed in understanding, > inclination, > or will, and all his powers, in order that he may rightly understand, > think, > will, and effect what is truly good, according to the word of Christ, > John > xv. 5: "Without me ye can do nothing." > > > >> BTotal depravity >> >> *Main article: Total >> depravity<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Total_depravity> >> * >> >> The doctrine of total depravity (also called "total inability") asserts >> that, as a consequence of the fall of humanity into >> sin<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fall_of_man>, >> every person born into the world is enslaved to the service of >> sin<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sin>. >> People are not by nature inclined to love God with their whole heart, >> mind, >> or strength, but rather all are inclined to serve their own interests >> over >> those of their neighbor and to reject the rule of God. Thus, all people >> by >> their own faculties are morally unable to choose to follow God and be >> saved >> because they are unwilling to do so out of the necessity of their own >> natures. (The term "total" in this context refers to sin affecting every >> part of a person, not that every person is as evil as possible.) >> >> Jacob Arminius <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacob_Arminius> himself and >> some of his later followers, such as John >> Wesley<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Wesley>, >> also affirmed total depravity. Even so, the Remonstrants whose views >> were >> rejected at Dort opposed it. >> >> >> -- >> Bro. Jeff Hallmark >> www.sprucelandbaptist.com >> http://baptist-potluck.blogspot.com/ > > > > > -- > Bro. Jeff Hallmark > www.sprucelandbaptist.com > http://baptist-potluck.blogspot.com/ > > To subscribe, send a message to: pastorsforum-join@... > > To unsubscribe, send a message to: pastorsforum-unsubscribe@... > >