Pain in not a "thing" Does pain exist or do I create it. If I punch someone in the nose, did pain exist before I punched him? Once punched, pain now is experienced. When did it begin? Did God create pain? Pain is the result of punching. Sin is the result of disobedience. Plain and simple. Satan sin because he disobeyed God. His disobedience was acted upon in pride, in exalting himself, in selfishly wanting to be above God, but it was his disobedience or transgression of God's law that resulted in sin. But, you say, (sorry Dr. Laura) God created the body so pain would result with certain things happened so you want to blame God for the pain. No, God didn't punch the nose. He didn't cause the pain. God didn't make man sin and didn't create sin. Sin was the result of disobeying God's law. David Warner -----Original Message----- From: prosperityfbc [mailto:prosperityfbc@...] Sent: Sunday, July 04, 2004 3:19 PM To: pastorsforum@... Subject: Re: [PastorsForum] sin How can you do something that is "in direct opposition to Who God is? if that "thing" doesn't exist. How can it exist if it hasn't been created? Again, can Satan create? How can a thing be a thing if it is not a thing? DG ---------- Original Message ---------------------------------- From: "jim" <jim.melissa@...> Reply-To: pastorsforum@... Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2004 07:32:22 -0400 >Excellent work men. I've been sitting on the sidelines as well, letting you do all the work. lol. > >I agree that sin is not a "thing" that needed to be created, but an act of disobedience (of the will) against God. > >What makes it wrong is that it is in contradiction to God's character. I believe this goes to the root of the matter, rather than just saying that sin is those things that God says is wrong. When we sin, we are choosing to do something that is in direct opposition to Who God IS. So I'd have to say that even if God didnt SAY something was wrong, it still would be because it would go against the nature of Who He Is, and the way He made things to function (homosexuality, contentment, humility, etc). > >A Sinner Saved by Grace, >Jimbo > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Steven G. Rockhill > To: pastorsforum@... > Sent: Saturday, July 03, 2004 12:00 AM > Subject: Re: [PastorsForum] sin > > > OK Dale, > This ought to be good as my eyes and mind are weary but I have enjoyed this. Disobedience was an option (or at least a possibility) but I don't think that necessitates the 'existence' of it (i.e. disobedience/sin). A while back I made a post and you responded with "Huh?". Well this is what I was trying to get at, but the problem is I don't know how to explain it any other way. Here is my previous post: (gotta go dig it outta the trash bin :-) ) : Based on God's design - the ability or possibility to sin was there but that does not mean that sin itself was there. > Perhaps sin was always a possibility but didn't actually happen/come into existence until someone disobeyed (Satan). So Satan did not 'create' sin but rather it was a consequence/by-product of his disobedience. Obviously God was aware of this possibility when He created all things. Does that make any sense - I am sorry that I cannot come up with a clearer example - but that is where I have hit the wall and my attempt to solve the issue. > I will say that there are two things that I do know: > 1) God is not the author of sin. > 2) Romans 11:33-36 33 "Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out! 34 "For who has known the mind of the LORD? Or who has become His counselor?" 35 "Or who has first given to Him And it shall be repaid to him?" 36 For of Him and through Him and to Him are all things, to whom be glory forever. Amen." Basically God moves in mysterious ways and yet somehow it all works out to glorify Him in the end. (maybe that is three things). > > That is the best I can do at this point, thanks. > > Peace in Christ Jesus, > Steve > > > > Dale Gooding wrote: > > Amen, Amen, & Amen, and I appreciate you working with me on this. Note I said "with me". We are all on the learning curve. > But, there is always a but with me isn't there? How can you "choose" to disobey if disobey is not an option. It could only be an option if it existed. If it existed then God must have created it. That is why I asked the first question, "does Satan have creative ability"? Like someone said earlier their must be a choice but the only person who could create the choices is the Creator. > I agree with you on the book thing. If I am wrong, I will deny everything :) > > DG > -----Original Message----- > From: Steven G. Rockhill [mailto:revrock@...] > Sent: Friday, July 02, 2004 10:13 PM > To: pastorsforum@... > Subject: Re: [PastorsForum] sin > > > Dale, > It seems like this is where I was headed in my thinking on this with a few exceptions. I will say that I am a little uncomfortable with: True as that may be, is it possible that God did create the concept of homosexuality, robbery, laziness, drunkenness, etc... not with an evil heart but because they are what they are, but labeled them as "wrong, sin, evil, etc..."? > It may not necessarily be wrong but I think it is more basic than that. I think God sees sin as disobedience to His Law. I do not know what 'law' He gave to Satan before Satan's fall, but we know Satan disobeyed by rebelling against God. The 'Law' God gave to Adam was do not eat and live; eat and die (Gen. 2:17). Once Adam and Eve sinned they received (experienced) the knowledge of Good and Evil. The death and corruption that came to their nature then produces all sorts of sinful disobediences (homosexuality, robbery, laziness, drunkeness) - but they are all disobediences. So,as I think out loud again, I do not believe that God 'created' the "concept of homosexuality ..." but sees it all as only obedience vs. disobedience. You either obey God or you do not and it doesn't matter how you disobey because it is all still disobedience. Other than that I think I am on the same page with you, for now ... unless someone reveals that this is some ancient heresy in which case I am not even in the same book with you ;-) . I may have to do some further study on this. Thanks for helping to stretch our minds. This is one of the best dialogues/discussions I have had on this forum or any forum for that matter. And I think it was because no one has all the answers but everyone that has participated has been thinking outloud and respecting others thoughts. > > Peace, > Steve > > > > > >-- >To unsubscribe, send ANY message to: pastorsforum-unsubscribe@... > >"In essential things, unity; in non-essential things, liberty; and in all things, charity." > > >-- >To unsubscribe, send ANY message to: pastorsforum-unsubscribe@... > >"In essential things, unity; in non-essential things, liberty; and in all things, charity." > > -- To unsubscribe, send ANY message to: pastorsforum-unsubscribe@... "In essential things, unity; in non-essential things, liberty; and in all things, charity."