Steve, Jesus began His church on earth during His earthly ministry. The church exists in many local churches. He is building it. Some day He will gather it unto Himself in heaven as His completed, beautiful, spotless, and perfect Bride. It will be GATHERED as is seen now when the church is GATHERED. This is the mystery, not the invisible. So from Matt. 16 He told of His church from then on and in Matt 18 He is telling his church how to behave themselves now. David W -----Original Message----- From: Steven G. Rockhill [mailto:revrock@...] Sent: Saturday, October 23, 2004 9:04 AM To: pastorsforum@... Subject: Re: [PastorsForum] RE: New Question So when Jesus said in Matthew 16 "I will build my Church" - based on what you say below then, that "church" He was talking about was the Church gathered in heaven and not the Church here on earth? Peace, Steve The wrong premise is that you BEGIN with the universal as existing in the world today and make all Scripture apply to what you believe to start with. If you will think local and understand that the church singular will not exist until it is gathered in heaven you will see that this is a "better fit". That's all I'm saying. Until you can even consider that the universal is a false concept for believers today you will not be able to understand those who do not accept it. David W -----Original Message----- From: Derick Dickens [mailto:Derick@...] Sent: Friday, October 22, 2004 9:30 PM To: pastorsforum@... Subject: RE: [PastorsForum] RE: New Question David Warner, First, this is not my premise, it is showing in scripture how I derive at a Universal Church. I see no way you can take Ephesians 5 to mean a local body of believers for the reasons I stated in my post. Again, I invite you to show how my exegesis is not proper and how in Ephesians that phraseology could be used of many local churches or of the Ephesian churches. I think I used proper exegetical and hermeneutical rules. There are other verses I could use, like Jesus saying he will build his "church" (singular not plural). If we believe that God has a purpose for each word, we must conclude there is significance. Someone talked about Church discipline. Church discipline is a local church matter. Most theologians will state that Sanctification has various uses in the Bible. To take one use and force it into other uses is wrong. To take what is designed for the local and apply it to the Universal Church is wrong. ------------------------------------ Wallers Baptist Church Pastor derick@... PO Box 95 Partlow VA 22534 tel: 540-582-5703 mobile: 540-894-1772 www.thedickensfamily.org ------------------------------------ -- To unsubscribe, send ANY message to: pastorsforum-unsubscribe@... "In essential things, unity; in non-essential things, liberty; and in all things, charity."