David, In some ways we are very close. Pastor David Warner wrote: > Steve, > A couple of clarifications: > 1. There are some Baptist that believe you can lose your salvation. They > are usually referred to as "Free-Will Baptist" Our friend Charlie is one > They are not bad people or bad preachers. I'm sure you all love and > appreciate Charlie as much as I do. Steve - > Traditional Anabaptists believe you can whereas >> most (but I am sure not all) baptists believe you cannot. > 2. I think you included all Baptists in your statement that "both groups > believe in man's free will to choose salvation apart from God's > intervention...and so both would deny election." Not so! Most Baptists I > know, including myself, believe in God's sovereignty and the quickening of > the Holy Spirit before man can do anything. Steve- Excellent here we agree. He is dead in trespasses and sin. Steve - Amen for Eph. 2. A dead man can't do anything. But once the Holy Spirit stirs his old sinful heart and mind and he is > offered the free gift of God's salvation through Jesus Christ he is not > forced to accept it. He can chose to reject Jesus or accept Jesus. Steve - Here is where we begin to part. If the Holy Spirit truly is working in his heart than his desire WILL BE to accept the Gospel. If the Holy Spirit is not truly working in his heart (e.g. emotionalism of the moment) then he will reject it -even though on the outside he may come forward and make a "decision". The Spirit doesn't just get things stirred up and then heads out of town - we are promised that if the Spirit is indeed working He will stay and even bring to perfection what was started. Consider: Psalm 138:7-8 7 Though I walk in the midst of trouble, You will revive me; You will stretch out Your hand Against the wrath of my enemies, And Your right hand will save me. 8 The LORD will perfect that which concerns me; Your mercy, O LORD, endures forever; Do not forsake the works of Your hands. Philippians 1:6 6 being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ; John 14:16-17 16 "And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper (Comforter in KJV), that He may abide with you forever -- 17 "the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. Onc the Spirit brings the dead to life - he who was once dead will choose life and the Spirit will be there to bring his salvation to perfection in Christ Jesus. God's will is that he not perish. The Sovereign God has done all and accomplished > all for his salvation but as a free moral agent he can chose to reject God's > will. STeve - If he is of the elect He will not perish - that is God's will. God has done all and accomplished all as you say but it is because of that that he is even able to choose that which is good and he will because that is the Father's will. Outside of regeneration we are bound to do evil and that which is in accordance to our sin nature. With the Holy Spirit working in us we are brought to newness of life, enabled to believe and we are given the desire to believe and receive Christ. We are not forced, but the Spirit enables us to want and desire Christ. I don't know of anyone who always at all times and in every > circumstance does the perfect will of God. I don't believe the Bible > teaches that we can lose our salvation once we truly believe but there may > be many professors but not possessors. Steve - Here we are back in full agreement again. The Bible does teach that those gloriously and truly saved will persevere to the end; they "are" overcomers. > (1 John 5:4, 5). Steve - Amen. As a non-Calvinists, I believe the Bible teaches election, > predestination, fore-ordination, election, and perseverance of the saints. > In addition, I believe the Bible teaches that "we must receive" the gift > offered. Steve - Maybe you are a closet Calvinist. Actually Calvinism is just the name given to label the system of doctrine and interpretation but I do strongly believe it is the Bible truth, not just the opinion and doctrine of man. > > David Warner Steve - Steve Rockhill > > PS I have heard the term Hyper-Calvinists used but don't believe I have > heard the term "semi-Armenian" before. Is that a new brand of > tractor-trailer? > > Steve - PS I am not sure that semi-arminian is an actual term but it fits with the doctrine. Most that I was describing with this term would not call themselves Arminians but they do share some common beliefs again with losing your salvation perhaps being the key difference. I think I shared before that my in-laws are Arminians and actually admit it (Amish-Mennonites) but I love them and love their daughter and grandchildren even more. BTW I may be Hyper and I may be a Calvinist but I am not a Hyper-Calvinist. > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Steven G. Rockhill [mailto:revrock@...] > Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2005 10:33 AM > To: pastorsforum@... > Subject: Re: [PastorsForum] Elected to be like Christ > > > Dale, > You bring up some good points. For clarification most people who are > labeled Arminians are not true Arminians - but they do have some > teachings of Arminius. Anabaptists tend to be true Arminians (and when > I say Anabaptists I speak in this sense of Amish, Mennonite, Brethren > etc.). In general - baptists who are not calvinistic are perhaps more > semi-arminian. The key difference I believe is whether or not you can > lose your salvation. Traditional Anabaptists believe you can whereas > most (but I am sure not all) baptists believe you cannot. But both > groups believe in man's free will to choose salvation apart from God's > intervention (i.e. His sovereign grace) and so both would deny election. > So when folks are called with a blanket statement - Arminians - it may > not be quite accurate --- just like when the blanket statement of > Hyper-Calvinist is used. > Also, as to your friends question - this is exactly the point I was > getting at when I first responded to Jerry's post of Rev. Parton's message: > > >>I just want to add one comment in response to this: > > > from Rev. Parton >> "He wants everyone to go to Heaven;" > > My response > It is sad that God is so impotent (powerless) that He does > not get what He wants. > > Keep studying the Word, > > Steve > > > > D