I just wanted to say that I too really loved and was helped by the series of articles "When Should a Christian Leave a Church?" There's so much good stuff to think about in these posts. I appreciate them! Nancy >From: Terry Rayburn <terryrayburn@...> >Reply-To: soundofgrace@... >To: soundofgrace@... >Subject: [soundofgrace] Re: Popish eldership vs congregational tempering >Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 15:22:14 -0700 (PDT) > >John, > >I really like what you wrote below. > >Question: > >From a practical standpoint, how does a local Baptist >church insure having a form of congregationalism to >temper the eldership? > >Is it in how the elders are selected? Voting on >issues by the people? > >This relates well to your article (one of my >favorites) on "When Should A Christian Leave A Church?" > >Sorry, group, I don't have time right now to look up >a URL for the article. I'm sure it's on >http://www.soundofgrace.com > >Thanks, > >Terry Rayburn > >--- John Reisinger <jreisinger@...> wrote: > > The discussion about creeds has been very > > interesting at times and also, at other times, a bit "far > > out." One of problems with a chat room is getting too > > many snakes running loose. You need to kill each snake or > > else admit it has the right to gobble up whom it > > chooses. > > > > One of the problems with this discussion is a > > failure to define and clarify terms. It is essential to > > understand what is meant by a "confessional church." Both > > Presbyterians and Baptists have a confession of faith. > > However, the Presbyterians are a confessional church and > > historic Baptists are not a confessional church. The > > Presbyterian confession is called the "Westminster > > Confession of Faith." There is a group called "The > > Presbyterian Church of America" (PCA). That is a > > denomination. Every single local church in the PCA and > > every person in each of those churches must subscribe to > > the WCF. Presbyterians do not believe the WCF is inspired > > in the same sense as the Bible. They do believe that the > > WCF is the true and faithful interpretation of the Word > > of God. They willingly and knowingly bind their > > conscience to the WCF only because they believe it is the > > true and accurate interpretation of the Bible. In any > > discussion in any Presbytery or Assembly, all one needs > > to win the argument is a quotation from either the > > Catechism or the WCF. This is what constitutes a > > "Confessional" church. > > > > As mentioned, Baptist also have confessions > > of faith but historically they have not been a > > "Confessional" church. There is no such thing as "The > > Reformed Baptist Church of America" or of anything else. > > There are "Reformed Baptist ChurchES" and they may be > > bound together in an "Association of ChurchES" but they > > are not "THE Reformed Baptist Church." In no sense can > > the Association have any control over an individual local > > church. The Association may not act like a Presbytery and > > interfere, rightly or wrongly, with a local church. Local > > Reformed Baptist churches may subscribe to a confession > > of faith agreed upon by all the churches in the > > association but it does not bind any church or person's > > conscience to that confession as a Presbyterian does. > > Baptist historically have not been "confessional > > churches." Whether in the local church or at an > > Association meeting, the only authority is the Word of > > God. Present day Reformed Baptists, whom many feel are > > closet Presbyterians, have changed all of that and have > > become a Confessional Church. They are a denomination in > > reality even if they deny that and insist they are merely > > an Association of churches. > > > > One of the most tragic mistakes the Reformed > > Baptists made was adopting the Presbyterian view of > > church government and leadership. A Presbyterian view of > > Eldership works very well in a Presbyterian system. A > > Baptist view of Eldership works well in a congregational > > system of government. In both the Presbyterian and the > > congregational (historic Baptist) systems you have a > > check and balance. It is difficult to be a tyrannical > > pope in either a Presbyterian or a true congregational > > church. On the one hand, Presbytery acts as a check and > > on the other hand the congregation acts as a check. The > > Reformed Baptists, under the leadership of Al Martin and > > Walter Chantry, did the following: (1) They adopted a > > Presbyterian view of Eldership and denied > > congregationalism. They insisted the authority of the > > church was in the Eldership and not in the congregation. > > (2) They very adamantly asserted that there was no > > authority of any kind outside of the local church. > > Everything, including missions, youth work, seminaries, > > evangelism, etc. all had to under the authority and > > control of a specific local church. Since they denied > > congregationalism and put all the authority under the > > eldership, "under the authority of the local church" was > > really tantamount to "under the control of the Elders." > > And since the Elders were, in most cases, hand picked by > > the pastor it actually meant "under the authority of the > > pastor." The Reformed Baptists really created a system of > > Baptist Romanism. > > > > Eldership works well as long as there is > > either a Presbytery or congregationalism to act as a > > check and balance. However, Eldership without either of > > these two things is Roman popery. Likewise a confession > > is a very helpful thing until it is used as if it had the > > authority of Scripture. I suggest anyone interested in > > this subject read our booklet entitled "Authority and the > > Local Church." > > > > > > > > JGR > > > > > > >===== >======================== >Visit "Grace For Life" >An Oasis of Rest For the People of God >http://www.graceforlife.com >======================== > >__________________________________ >Do you Yahoo!? >The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search >http://shopping.yahoo.com > > >-- >To unsubscribe, send ANY message to ><soundofgrace-unsubscribe@...> > >To view our online archive go to our web page at >http://www.associate.com/groups/soundofgrace > > > _________________________________________________________________ Instant message during games with MSN Messenger 6.0. Download it now FREE! http://msnmessenger-download.com