Jeff Scanlan wrote:
> 
>>> There is a clear similarity at the point of whether we give glory,
>> implied
>>> or otherwise, to the person rather than God.
>> Ah.  Gotcha.  However, celebrating one's baptism is hardly giving glory
>> to the person, any more than hugging one's child who professes faith is
>> giving glory to the child.  We can celebrate new life without glorifying
>> the person who has received new life.  I am shocked that you cannot see
>> the difference.
>>
> 
> I am shocked that you cannot see that what is happening so often is in fact
> giving glory to the person. No matter how much you might wish it to be
> otherwise that is not what is happening. The focus so soon comes on the
> person being baptised that all else is forgotten.

Is it?  Do you know that those who are excited over a person's 
conversion/baptism are not truly excited for what *God* did?  I read 
people well, but I cannot read people that well.

> I remember one baptism where after the candidate was immersed someone called
> out across the church at the top of his voice, 'Yeay.....Tom.'

Did you ask that man who he was truly applauding?  Did you ask him if 
what he meant with the words, "Yeay......Tom" was really, "Tom, I am so 
very glad that God has performed a wonderful work in your life, that God 
has caused you to be born again and in response, out of love for Him, 
you have publicly confessed Christ in baptism"?  Did you ask him if his 
emotionally excited utterance really meant, "Wow, Tom.  You are amazing. 
  What a wise, intelligent thing you have done.  How very noble and 
meritorious your decision to be baptized!"?

Last Sunday we had about ten baptisms in my church.  We applauded each 
time.  We thanked God for what He has done in each life.  Rather than 
audibly saying those words, we clapped.

>>> NO I will never accept that. I have seen it almost always be something
>> that
>>> misses the point of what the baptism is about. I have always come away
>> from
>>> it considering that the whole process has been thoroughly debased and
>>> looking at those who have been the candidates on those occasions and
>> their
>>> subsequent lives fully justifies how I see it.
>> This is terribly sad.  
> 
> What is sad? That this is actually happening or that I see it that way.
> 

What is sad is you seem to live your life with no joy over one who comes 
to Christ, for fear you may place undue emphasis on the one sheep out of 
100 who was found.

> 
>> Have you no joy in life?
> 
> Did you not read what I wrote above?

I did, hence my question.

>>> Well that is what the scripture says. We have only done our duty (Luke
>>> 17:10)
>> Yes, we only do what we must and, yet, God will one day say, "Well done,
>> good and faithful servant."  This does not give us glory; it reveals His
>>   glory in us.
>> --
> 
> 
> Yes well let Him throw the party. I can wait. In the meantime I am not going
> to confuse people, particularly our young people, into thinking that they
> have done something for which they need to be congratulated.
> 'Congratulations on your baptism' was what I saw on one cake.
> 
> And I don't want other young people to think that can have a party if and
> when they decide to be baptised. You won't sort out the sheep from the
> goats. The party animals will know just what to say to you if you try to
> quiz them.

Why not use the opportunity as a time to provide sound instruction for 
celebrating new life *properly*?  You could tell your people that it is 
good and right to celebrate new life but instruct them to remember 
Who/what they are truly celebrating.  You are throwing away opportunities.

> God bless,
> Jeff

I would tell you the many ways God has, indeed, blessed me, but I would 
not want you to misunderstand me to be taking any of the glory from God. 
  Rather than celebrate with you the many ways God has blessed me, you 
must wait until heaven.  Sorry.
--
john-thomas